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Old 08-05-2012, 06:29   #181
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Originally Posted by montenido View Post
Well, I have an accepted offer on the CSY 44. The broker in question and I made nice so that we could put together a deal. Now it is on to mechanical, rigging, and general surveys, plus sea trial.

I am pretty excited at the moment, but I do have some back-up plan boats to consider if things don't work out.

Anyway, wish me luck and I'll start a fresh post to keep you posted (if anybody is interested, LOL).

Cheers, Bill
Good luck Bill. We're in the seriously hunting mode ourselves
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:49   #182
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Value can never be determined based on a discount from the asking price.

The best value is finding exactly what you are looking for at a price that you are prepared to pay.

Discussions about discounts fall into the category of negotiating with yourself.

The worst situation is to pass on buying what you want at a price you are willing to pay because you have either read about and tried some negotiating jewels on this Forum, or because you have negotiated with yourself.

Bill
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:05   #183
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Value can never be determined based on a discount from the asking price.

The best value is finding exactly what you are looking for at a price that you are prepared to pay.

Discussions about discounts fall into the category of negotiating with yourself.

The worst situation is to pass on buying what you want at a price you are willing to pay because you have either read about and tried some negotiating jewels on this Forum, or because you have negotiated with yourself.

Bill

Thanks for that pearl, Bill.

I'm wrestling with a negotiation right now. It's helped clarify my thinking a lot. I guess I spent too much time in the corporate world where the deal negotiated was almost more important than the item itself.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:29   #184
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I tend to get caught up in the game as well sometimes. I have not bought cars, houses, tv s, stuff like that because I didn't like the way the deal was being handled/negotiated by the salesman. Boats I've found I had to change my attitude, especially on older used boats. Finding the few that meet the criteria and then narrowing down from there really trends to focus the deal to a dollar cost average only and the negotiations portion of the deal, while still very important, is not ultimately the deciding factor.
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Old 09-05-2012, 21:43   #185
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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The worst situation is to pass on buying what you want at a price you are willing to pay because you have either read about and tried some negotiating jewels on this Forum, or because you have negotiated with yourself.
No, the worst thing is overpaying for a boat because it's what you think you want. There is always another boat. Always.

One of the best negotiating strategies is to politely walk away and wish the seller best of luck in finding another buyer.
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Old 09-05-2012, 22:27   #186
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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There is an asking price, and my personal feeling is that you are being deceptive if you look over the boat with no intend ever to offer anywhere near that price, without mentioning that to the seller at the start.
First, it is impossible to know whether the asking price is fair price until you go look over the boat. Perhaps the seller is asking a fair price relative to market, and perhaps not. Many sellers set unrealistically high prices from lack of experience and understanding of market. Others set artificially high prices expecting to negotiate down to the "real" price. When I go look at a boat I have no idea what I will offer until I go see it. I might offer full asking price after I see it... or I might offer much, much lower... but I can't predict what that will be until I go see. Of course, most of the boats I've gone to see do not match their glowing advertisement, and I don't bother making any offer at all.

Second, buying and selling boats is no different than buying and selling anything else. There is no one right price that is right for everyone. The exact same boat (or car, or house, or computer, or horse) is valued more or less by each person. You will always be more willing (or less willing) to sell your boat (or to buy another) than the next person. The right price depends not only on the condition of the boat and market, but also on your desire to acquire (or dispose) AND the other other person's desire to dispose (or acquire). Every transaction must vary because buyers and sellers vary, because markets vary (because of supply, demand, and other factors), and because the condition of any particular boat (or whatever) varies compared to others of similar model and vintage. It is impossible to tell what is the right price until the deal is concluded. And the right deal for one person is NOT THE SAME as the right deal for another.

Again: When I go look at a boat I cannot predict whether I will make an offer until after I've seen it. Nor can I predict whether an initial offer will be near the asking price. Nor can I predict the conclusion. The process is the process, and that is the only way to find out what the actual price will be.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:46   #187
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

We just sold our boat and are about two months in to our hunt for a new one, so I'll share my limited experiences on both buying and selling in the current market.

Selling took about five months, but much of that was over the winter and there were not a lot of shoppers. We did not use a broker. Actually, we almost had a sale after one month, a very serious buyer turned up, but his wife had a better feeling about a different model so the went with that instead.

We priced our boat about mid-range for the age/model although it was in above-average condition and had more and more recent upgrades than most. It ended up selling very near our asking price; much closer than I had expected.

The key thing we got right was up-keep, I think; we lived aboard and so it was easy to keep clean and keep up with all the minor repairs. The buyer mentioned how poorly kept most of the other boats he had looked at were, and we have also noticed that as we have been looking. A little scrubbing and elbow grease can go a long way.

We also made it as easy as possible for people to look at the boat. Again, living aboard was helpful for this, because we were around most of the time. And sure, we got a lot of tire-kickers with no real wherewithal to make an offer, but unless you are psychic, you can't sort those out ahead of time easily... you risk giving a cold-shoulder to the guy who shows up with cash in his pocket. So we were cheerful and eager to show it to anyone who called.

Buying has been a puzzling journey so far. It doesn't appear that most brokers have learned those same lessons; I don't know if our experience was that atypical, or if, as others have suggested in this thread, maybe it's not necessarily in the broker's financial interest to sell their listings quickly.

We called Monday morning to make an offer on a boat and couldn't even get hold of anyone to hear what it was until late yesterday. The listing broker had called last week to tell us the price had dropped, and even said "And we'll drop it even more to get it sold." So we offered about 8% less than their ask, which also happens to be about what we think the boat is worth.

Today we hear that it's been rejected, they won't take a penny less than the asking price. When folks have mentioned "wasting people's time" in this thread, that's what I think of. We're finding out quickly that brokers aren't your buddy, negotiations are adversarial and it's a zero-sum game. This is equally true if you elect to use a "buyer's" broker; ask yourself where their compensation comes from. They have just as much incentive to get you to pay a higher price as the selling broker does.

Personally, I'm not going to behave in a manner I find unethical, but you have to negotiate on the same playing field the other team is using. So far, most brokers we've met have shown no compunction about mis-representing the condition of the boats they are repping, or even the pricing. If one of their tactics is to dramatically over-price listings to lend the appearance of reasonable negotiation, then one counter to that is to "lowball" those prices as some here have put it. I no longer have any problem going to check out boats that are way outside my theoretical max price; there is every chance they are over-priced and, like the others we have seen slowly drop over the months, will eventually be amenable to an offer in our range. Am I wasting the broker's time in showing that boat? Or is he wasting mine by keeping it artificially out of reach for six months before dropping the ask?

I think it's a dumb question, really; no one is wasting anyone's time, that's just how this market appears to work. You can ignore that and miss out on a good boat you might get at a reasonable price with a little pushing, or you can overpay and sit around in your slip paying it off instead of going sailing.

Obviously it would be faster and easier if everyone simply said exactly what they were willing to pay or accept, but it seems like it is not in the interests of the brokerages to do that.

There is a lot of wisdom and value in this thread but all the smoke about ethics and deception are not among it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:50   #188
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Originally Posted by ScuzzMonkey View Post
We just sold our boat and are about two months in to our hunt for a new one, so I'll share my limited experiences on both buying and selling in the current market.
Thanks for sharing your experiances - whether typical or not (personally I think it is) it is a useful datapoint for others (whether they choose to use it or not is a seperate matter ).

The Boat Broker thing truly is one of the great mysteries of our age .
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Old 10-05-2012, 13:36   #189
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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Bill,

NADA for the boat you are interested in, even fitted out nicely, $40K tops. For a '79, sounds about right.
I am curious about NADA. I am seriously looking to buy something along the lines of an F31R. I did lots of internet searches and thought I had some idea about asking prices. I found a couple that on paper looked good, 1999 and 2000 with electronics, extra sails, trailer, the usual stuff for the $US75-80k range, within my 100k budget of cash on the barrel head.

Then I looked at the NADA and even checking all the extras and near Bristol condition I could not get the number over $US55k. Both of these boats on on their trailers and the broker wants a written offer and 10% for sea trials; not that I find that unreasonable.

In other threads along the lines of this one I have been bashed for suggesting NADA should be used. I have also been told by a broker that a survey for an F-boat is a waste of money because those guys don't know about trimarans. To some extent I understand that a tri on a trailer may not really need a survey.

On the other hand I doubt I could get a loan (not that I need one), and possibly insurance, with out a survey. Another question I have is about insurance. I have called Progressive and they basically said insurance for an F31 I paid $US75k for needed to be insured for 90k, because that is what they think it is worth.

I realize the condition of a boat is the key to what it should sell for, but how close to reality are the NADA values to selling prices.
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Old 11-05-2012, 18:33   #190
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

oh my god! Why did I ever get tangled up with yachts? Year ago bought my 47.7 for AUD 230k and spent 25k on it. It's pretty nice boat but..... She is 11 years old and is really a bit tired cosmetically. Mate of mine signed a contract couple of weeks ago for identical boat and the price was AUD200. Pissed me off big way to hear that market has dropped even more. I thought that I had a bargain!!! Hey that's life with yachts. I am in cross roads to buy an other boat or spend the money on the current one. Nautor Swan 48 AUD490 and he will take by Beneteau as trade in. Have to pay $235k change over. This boat was new 10 yard ago 1.7 million. She has everything from electronics, water maker, genset, washing machine/dryer and aircon. Alternatively spend 80k on my Beneteau.... Still will be a Beneteau though!!! Point I am making is that as the market has dropped and you are upgrading for something nice, you may find a deal like mine that get back my dough as trade in.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:28   #191
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

It amazes me how people get fixated on how the accepted sales price compares to the asking price.

It's what you end up forking over that matters, not what someone originally asked.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:33   #192
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It amazes me how people get fixated on how the accepted sales price compares to the asking price.

It's what you end up forking over that matters, not what someone originally asked.
Agree, other words; he is not the mad one who ask, but the one who pay!
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Old 13-05-2012, 10:13   #193
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

another point of view...
Bought and sold a number of boats, and just sold another last week.. had it up for sale for the total sum of 4 days.. posted it on thursday and it sold by monday morning..
but being we'll be here for another year, I did offer to carry the paper for
1 year.. got a good down payment and the boat was sold at the price I posted..
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Old 13-05-2012, 17:31   #194
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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another point of view...
Bought and sold a number of boats, and just sold another last week.. had it up for sale for the total sum of 4 days.. posted it on thursday and it sold by monday morning..
but being we'll be here for another year, I did offer to carry the paper for
1 year.. got a good down payment and the boat was sold at the price I posted..
Just curious, what kind of security do you have it the boat gets cracked up or the owner takes off to parts unknown.
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Old 15-05-2012, 16:23   #195
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If only. Just got my last loan rejection letter for the older boat I want. Funny, they'll happily give me $200K for a newer boat, but not $50K for an old one worth double that (and with twice the down payment). At the end of five years they'll both be worth around $100K.

Maybe I should have asked for longer than a five year term...

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