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Old 01-03-2014, 16:21   #91
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Returning to the topic, here's an account I came across from a skipper who had come into Zumaia just ahead of the unfortunate Bavaria 38

"There was a swell, but nothing out of this world. (Our boats) had been racing, and on returning ...
Really bad luck, because it was an exceptional breaker. In the end, of the four (overboard), two had lifevests, not the others, among whom was the skipper. We spoke with them when they arrived at the wharf; they were relaxed and had not become frightened at any point. The two with no vests held onto those who had them, and being unable to swim, lay on their backs while awaiting rescue. A scary encounter with an unheralded breaker."

Source: http://www.lamarsalada.info/
Translation from Spanish: mine
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Old 01-03-2014, 16:41   #92
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Jesus. I nearly fell of my armchair laughing at this suggestion. Oh my sides

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Well hopfully you could clip your harness to the chair and maybe give me some explanation as to why it wouldnt work. As i said i am trying to learn from this. You are free to laugh but i think you may have knowledge that might save my life one day and if so i will be thankfull.

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Old 01-03-2014, 16:44   #93
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Maybe some should watch this little gem, good advice here!

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Old 01-03-2014, 16:54   #94
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Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by wellin View Post
Well hopfully you could clip your harness to the chair and maybe give me some explanation as to why it wouldnt work. As i said i am trying to learn from this. You are free to laugh but i think you may have knowledge that might save my life one day and if so i will be thankfull.

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To suggest you could reverse in to that harbour, by powering out Into the waves and reversing InThe troughs

(A) boat loses way, gets pivoted , or ends up swept in broadside, you never regain control get swept into the breach or the rocks

(B) transmission damage from rapid gear shifting, you end up loosing control and getting swept .....

(C) overcoming interia resulting in boat dead in the water , you end up loosing .....

( e) prolonging tine in wave train , you end ........

( g , h,I ,j k etc )

That boat was quite expertly helmed by someone who had done this before. On a sailboat all you can do , given the limited power available is try to judge the wave train , he knew exactly where to aim the boat to get into calm water. He couldn't have handled that breaking wave , he just didn't have the power. A big twin screw lifeboat with 800 caterpillars might have extracted itself.

That entrance was attempted exactly as it should have been , once committed in a sailboat you have to ply full power to retain the upmost steering control and try and keep the stern into the wave. If it breaks on top of you, well sometimes you luck out.

He did the right thing not going back to the mobs. Too shallow and he's too underpowered to execute tight turns needed. He would have ended up on the beach.

He'll I've seen more people go in the water in a bad spinnaker broach then that video. Why do you think we have two to three rescue boats around when were racing , Racing crew fall over all the time.

He did a good job, he luckd out with that monster breaker. Nothing else save not running the entrance would have saved him


Ps I'm involved with the rnli. I seen expert drivers with huge horsepower extract themselves . But no way this guy could save that one.

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Old 01-03-2014, 17:02   #95
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Maybe some should watch this little gem, good advice here!

Good video. Showing every boat pointing to shore getting flipped. Unless you have 900hp and can power faster than the 20 or more mph of the waves, towing another boat even!! that was impressive. But wouldn't every one of those boats be ok if pointing bow to waves?

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Old 01-03-2014, 17:03   #96
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Ok probably not the one anchored!!!

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Old 01-03-2014, 17:15   #97
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Dave nailed it, I reckon.


One of those further points he alluded to, I think, merits a few keystrokes for people in certain waters (including many West coasts in temperate latitudes), and that is this:

One difficulty with bar entrances is that they MAY not be perpendicular to the swell.

This presents little difficulty if the crux of the entrance is short (as at Zumaia) but it's a real problem with dynamic river bars with long channels, which are common in my part of the world.

The problem is that you cannot afford to be anything but square-on to big breakers.
If the channel is not square-on to them, though, following this imperative will quickly take you out of the channel.

Hence the importance of taking the time to pick a lull in the pattern, as well as giving the engine "full military honours" in order to spend the absolute minimum time squaring up to biggies, and generally faffing around.

Because every second spent squaring up (whether pointing inshore, or offshore) is a second spent getting swept towards the shallows alongside the channel, at which point you have no happy options when a breaker comes through.

Regardless of your orientation.

(and I'm not thinking here of California/Massachusetts vs Texas/Arizona!)
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Old 01-03-2014, 17:26   #98
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by wellin View Post
Good video. Showing every boat pointing to shore getting flipped. Unless you have 900hp and can power faster than the 20 or more mph of the waves, towing another boat even!! that was impressive. But wouldn't every one of those boats be ok if pointing bow to waves?

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You have no control of your boat going backwards in swell like that. If you have a tiller and you start to accelerate backwards, there is a good chance it pins you to either side of the cockpit as you wouldn't be able to hold it straight, the forces on the tiller would be immense. If you have a wheel, better chance, but any slight sideways movement of the boat by the force of the wave and you would still have your boat pushed sideways and flipped/rolled. Also, consider a folding prop, it folds open due to centrifugal forces and pushes forward, in reverse the blades "pull" and want to close up, only centrifugal forces will hold the prop open and not very well.
Then you have to consider the white water or foam after a wave has broken, no traction for the prop in that, hence he lost power/speed in the opening vid. Your ruder needs water flowing over it to function properly, foam or negative flow will effectively stall your rudder foil and render it much less effective.
Too many variables for my liking. Best bet is to stay as close to the back of a wave, pushing it in, that way you still have some chance of having time to ride into relative safety before the next wave catches you.
Still, the video depicts a very unlucky attempt. That wave would have been hard to pick, the way it suddenly builds and from a different angle to your regular wave pattern. Even surfers would have a had time reading that wave in the set pattern.

Just my thoughts though!
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Old 01-03-2014, 17:29   #99
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Good video. Showing every boat pointing to shore getting flipped. Unless you have 900hp and can power faster than the 20 or more mph of the waves, towing another boat even!! that was impressive. But wouldn't every one of those boats be ok if pointing bow to waves?
Pointing bow to waves is OK in two and a half situations:

1) Exiting ( easily, and not necessarily misleadingly, mistaken for 'exciting')

2) Waiting outside the break zone prior to entry, observing the rhythm * (vigilant, but well oriented, for the rare outlier which will break much further out)

3ish) Being towed out

or (as an unpalatable alternative to even more unpalatable options) hanging on at anchor while awaiting rescue, or waiting for the rising tide to move the break inshore of your location, or some other excuse which had better be a good one.

ON EDIT: I just thought of a VERY good excuse for pointing offshore during scheduled entry to a bar, and that's this:

performing a bootlegger turn, getting the hell out of there, aborting the entry, and preparing to make alternative plans.

This, I feel, should always be an uppermost Plan B, but needs to be timed right. Don't ever start this in the trailing half of the trough, unless the waves are unusually far apart and/or you can spin on a dime.

The last time I exercised this option, having been pushed out one side of the channel (for reasons I gave earlier) I had left it too late and was touching in the troughs, meaning (because of special circumstances) I had drop anchor momentarily to get the boat's head offshore.
The alternative would have been to get half way round, and then end up heeling inshore, being pushed sideways towards the beach with the keel touching more and more often, acting as a trailing drag and preventing the bow coming up into the waves.

This worked a treat, and it's a very old trick (from sailing ship days - I think they called it club-hauling) but is not generally feasible.
And you have to be remarkably slick at retrieving the anchor as you hightail past it on exit. I didn't give it time to set properly, which helped.

Plan C would have been to let the entire chain run out, and slash the nylon pendant which secures it to the clench plate in the chain locker (which is purposely long enough to almost reach the bow roller) with the knife which lived on a scabbard at the base of the mast. But, to be honest, I hadn't thought that far ahead. I would now.
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Old 01-03-2014, 18:29   #100
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Fair enough. Thanks.

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Old 01-03-2014, 18:34   #101
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Pointing bow to waves is OK in two and a half situations:

1) Exiting ( easily, and not necessarily misleadingly, mistaken for 'exciting')

2) Waiting outside the break zone prior to entry, observing the rhythm * (vigilant, but well oriented, for the rare outlier which will break much further out)

3ish) Being towed out

or (as an unpalatable alternative to even more unpalatable options) hanging on at anchor while awaiting rescue, or waiting for the rising tide to move the break inshore of your location, or some other excuse which had better be a good one.

ON EDIT: I just thought of a VERY good excuse for pointing offshore during scheduled entry to a bar, and that's this:

performing a bootlegger turn, getting the hell out of there, aborting the entry, and preparing to make alternative plans.

This, I feel, should always be an uppermost Plan B, but needs to be timed right. Don't ever start this in the trailing half of the trough, unless the waves are unusually far apart and/or you can spin on a dime.

The last time I exercised this option, having been pushed out one side of the channel (for reasons I gave earlier) I had left it too late and was touching in the troughs, meaning (because of special circumstances) I had drop anchor momentarily to get the boat's head offshore.
The alternative would have been to get half way round, and then end up heeling inshore, being pushed sideways towards the beach with the keel touching more and more often, acting as a trailing drag and preventing the bow coming up into the waves.

This worked a treat, and it's a very old trick (from sailing ship days - I think they called it club-hauling) but is not generally feasible.
And you have to be remarkably slick at retrieving the anchor as you hightail past it on exit. I didn't give it time to set properly, which helped.

Plan C would have been to let the entire chain run out, and slash the nylon pendant which secures it to the clench plate in the chain locker (which is purposely long enough to almost reach the bow roller) with the knife which lived on a scabbard at the base of the mast. But, to be honest, I hadn't thought that far ahead. I would now.



It's used in narrow sections of water to turn large cargo ships today too. Impressive to watch

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Old 01-03-2014, 18:43   #102
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Re: Bad Bad Day

And a good way to get firing position on a rear attacking ship!! (Pirates)

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Old 01-03-2014, 18:57   #103
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Re: Bad Bad Day

These guys handled it a little better

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Old 01-03-2014, 19:10   #104
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Re: Bad Bad Day

LOL, he said's "it was worth the risk"
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Old 01-03-2014, 19:47   #105
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by casual View Post
https://vimeo.com/87355387 Things that can happen.
2/28 evening PST.
I DIDN'T read forward in the thread.
I watched about 30 seconds.
Imho, if the genoa was rolled out, and trimmed for the waves, they would have made it.

I'll now read forward to see the outcome which doesn't look good.

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