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Old 28-02-2014, 12:20   #61
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Let me go through this footage, please…

00:00 – 01:20 – helmsman is assessing the entrance – well done.
01:20 – 01:50 – helmsman turns around and is positioning the boat for run into the harbour – well done.
01:50 – 02:00 – helmsman is putting all the revs on and is making a quick dash for the entrance – well done.
02:00 – 02:40 – helmsman is running into the entrance under the screen of breakwater – well done.
02:40 – it is possible (but not sure) that helmsman is taking off some revs (“We are into, lads!”). If so – it was a mistake, but I’m not at all sure if marginally higher speed would had help…
02:40 – 02:58 – huge breaking wave knocks the boat flat. It was unexpected and unpredictable. No reason to blame helmsman. Four people get to water – helmsman, one from port sidedeck, one from cockpit, the last one or from starboard sidedeck or from cockpit – difficult to be sure. The boat rightens itself. Bothe people from foredeck stay on the deck.
02:58 – 03:16 – one of the crewmen jumps to the wheel, helming the boat just off the surf, hiding under the lee of breakwater. Crewmen from the bow are getting to the cockpit. Well done – not a sign of the panic.
03:16 – 04:30 – new helmsman keeps boat just outside the surf, Crew is deploying the horseshoe buoy on the line, but to no avail, as the surf is getting all four overboard out of inner breakwater, toward the cove with a beach (see satellite on Google maps). Nothing wrong on the side of the crew.
One crewman is not in the cockpit – probably already down and on VHF.
04:30 – 06:20 – boat is standing by, slowly closing the entrance channel. Motorboat appears. Look carefully: there is her skipper at wheel, one person in red suit in the forward cockpit and at least one (or rather two) quite small silhouettes in blue. Children perhaps? Only three minutes thirty seconds passed from the knock down. It is only half a mile from Marina Urola, but still it is rather too short a time for somebody there to be alarmed, get to the boat, don a wetsuits, start the engines and get there. It is occasional boater rather, with a family on board, perhaps. Bavaria disappears into the channel.
06:20 – 06:35 – motorboat is turning around and disappears in channel following Bavaria.
06:35 – 07:30 – Bavaria slows down in the channel (mast is still visible). Motorboat reappears after less than a minute.
07:30 – 08:49 – motorboat has now three persons on board: the skipper and two men in red suits in fore cockpit. My guess is skipper of motorboat dropped less able people on the Bavaria and took a red-suited guy from a yacht. They are now attempting a rescue action. People overboard are out of dangerous surf now, and the motorboat crew perform their task steady and purposefully. Good job of motorboat skipper, really.
08:49 – 08:55 – next huge breaker forces the motorboat to break over. The motorboat skipper is doing extraordinarily well. The sail yacht appears from the entrance channel.
08:55 – 12:33 – the newly arrived yachts is staying by, while the motorboat and her crew are completing the rescue. Please note: LAST person was taken aboard the motorboat in about nine minutes thirty seconds after the Bavaria knockdown.

I think everybody involved did their best in this dangerous situation. I can not see any stupidity on this footage. But there is some good seamanship I think…
Thanks for the great analysis.
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Old 28-02-2014, 13:24   #62
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Thats my question too. unanswered.
I counted four in the water and four rescued from the water. The powerboat fetches one swimmer, gets out of the way of the breaking wave, then goes back for the remaining three.
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Old 28-02-2014, 13:32   #63
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
So you're seeing all 4 being rescued? There was some question online whether they were all retrieved.
I was out for the forum for some time, Salty.
Go to full screen mode and view:

08:40 – 08:50
10:10 – 10:25
11:05 – 11:15
12:00 – 12:20
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Old 28-02-2014, 13:34   #64
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Re: Bad Bad Day

nice thanks KW and DW!
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Old 28-02-2014, 16:17   #65
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Wow, very sobering!
Not the vid, but the guessing game going on here. What's with all the professional opinions, want to hear mine?
For starters, we should call the 'jetty' a breakwater, racing crews don't strew crew all over the boat to keep them out of the cockpit, or have no life-harnesses/pfd's for all the crews on board. Racing yachts in particular have tighter and more regular scrutineering for safety equipment then cruisers. All crew should have been in cockpit clipped in. No excuses there!
There is NO whiplash as the boat rights, so there is no chance of getting 'cut up' by rigging. Hitting a winch or other hard object will always hurt and can do some damage, but that is the same as slipping on deck. When you go overboard it is more like getting flushed off the deck, not so much flung or dropped. Jacklines should be far enough inboard so when clipped in you can reach the safety lines, but not get past them and only if you have business on the foredeck, otherwise, in or near the cockpit.
As for the unlucky wave, it sure was unlucky. They tried to time the wave set right, but this one was off angle and build out of nowhere almost 30+deg off the regular set and hence it also came over the top of the breakwater as well. You can just make it out building on the right hand side of the vid as they make their run. At that stage they were committed and could not abort. The boat did indeed look underpowered and although I don't consider a Bavaria a racing yacht, they tend to drop small engines in to save weight and costs.
Maybe the skipper got dropped overboard, maybe not, but looking at the wave pattern and water breaking where the overboard crews ended up, I would think that it is rather shallow there and not deep enough for the yacht to go.
The yacht should have stayed nearby to keep an eye on the MOB's, as not to loose sight of them and use the radio to call for assistance, as there were strong rips/currents in that area probably due to the sandbanks or the like. Not sure why the rescue boat went back in, maybe to pick up more men to aid in the rescue?
Either way, rescuers did very well considering the conditions. Maybe they didn't have a long enough rope and float to do the rescue cycle, not a bad option but needs a little planning and skill, as well as luck not to get caught up in it. That rescue boat would never survive a breaker over the bow or deck.
Speculation is a fun game, but a bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

Lesson learned should be CLIP IN and WEAR PFD's (even if it is only for the bar crossing), waves and weather are unpredictable!

Good luck to all out there and stay safe! As we all can see, events can turn in seconds and outcomes can be tragic!
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Old 28-02-2014, 16:44   #66
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
This boat is example of early production batch (2002-2004, if I remember correctly). On later builts the coachroof windows were modified.
This batch of Bavarias was equipped with Volvo MD 2030 engines, of 29 hp only. The boat was designed by J&J to take up to 50 hp diesel, but (once again - if I remember correctly) bigger engine was available as a option for later builts only. So - it's almost sure the boat on video was attempting this entrance under 29 hp MD 2030, what really made her underpowered in such circumstances.

Tomasz
Perhaps you might also guess at the prop. If its and early boat & small engine & club/day racer I would suspect a 2-blade folding prop. Not very efficient, useless in reverse. We had one of these beauties on a similarly under powered Heritage One-Ton (Morgan 37) 35 HP. These have almost no thrust at low boat speed and are unable to power over waves. The skipper may have been full throttle and water could have been rushing out - net=slow.

I wondered if the the power boater might have tossed a life-sling or other floating line such as ski rope and then moved to the still water to retrieve the swimmers. They may have determined that the swimmers were not distressed and waited for a few low waves for opportunity. In any case, he did well in that cauldron. He had me nervous when he hove to with the transom into the waves.

It would be nice to hear what the skipper and others had to say about this rather than second guess them. Its clear the passengers and skipper were surprised. They were all too nonchalant.

I watched the waves from the beginning while the boat was still at sea. I saw nothing to suggest waves breaking over that wall. Kind of a freaky occurrence.
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Old 28-02-2014, 16:58   #67
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by Connemara View Post
Occasion voiles[/url]) says the boat had a 75 hp motor.
Are you positive on the power? Frequently, in my business, Europeans rate in nominal KW. 75 HP seems like a lot for that boat. I did notice just before the big one hit that a large flow of water out appeared to slow the boat to a crawl.
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Old 28-02-2014, 17:10   #68
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
Hi Dave,



Nope, not nuts. Encircling the victims in a line will give them security, something to hang onto and move them closer to where you can pick them up. The power boat did an ok job but took longer than necessary.



Once the circling is done the power can be cut (in neutral) and you can hand over hand to the folks in the water.



If it doesn't work for you that's ok. It's the way I do it.

That's different. That's not towing them. But anyway. In thAt swell putting a line in the water s far to big a risk. The pickup went fine they were picked up within 7 minutes

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Old 28-02-2014, 17:32   #69
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by ancor View Post
Wow, very sobering!
Not the vid, but the guessing game going on here. What's with all the professional opinions, want to hear mine?
For starters, we should call the 'jetty' a breakwater, racing crews don't strew crew all over the boat to keep them out of the cockpit, or have no life-harnesses/pfd's for all the crews on board. Racing yachts in particular have tighter and more regular scrutineering for safety equipment then cruisers. All crew should have been in cockpit clipped in. No excuses there!
There is NO whiplash as the boat rights, so there is no chance of getting 'cut up' by rigging. Hitting a winch or other hard object will always hurt and can do some damage, but that is the same as slipping on deck. When you go overboard it is more like getting flushed off the deck, not so much flung or dropped. Jacklines should be far enough inboard so when clipped in you can reach the safety lines, but not get past them and only if you have business on the foredeck, otherwise, in or near the cockpit.
As for the unlucky wave, it sure was unlucky. They tried to time the wave set right, but this one was off angle and build out of nowhere almost 30+deg off the regular set and hence it also came over the top of the breakwater as well. You can just make it out building on the right hand side of the vid as they make their run. At that stage they were committed and could not abort. The boat did indeed look underpowered and although I don't consider a Bavaria a racing yacht, they tend to drop small engines in to save weight and costs.
Maybe the skipper got dropped overboard, maybe not, but looking at the wave pattern and water breaking where the overboard crews ended up, I would think that it is rather shallow there and not deep enough for the yacht to go.
The yacht should have stayed nearby to keep an eye on the MOB's, as not to loose sight of them and use the radio to call for assistance, as there were strong rips/currents in that area probably due to the sandbanks or the like. Not sure why the rescue boat went back in, maybe to pick up more men to aid in the rescue?
Either way, rescuers did very well considering the conditions. Maybe they didn't have a long enough rope and float to do the rescue cycle, not a bad option but needs a little planning and skill, as well as luck not to get caught up in it. That rescue boat would never survive a breaker over the bow or deck.
Speculation is a fun game, but a bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

Lesson learned should be CLIP IN and WEAR PFD's (even if it is only for the bar crossing), waves and weather are unpredictable!

Good luck to all out there and stay safe! As we all can see, events can turn in seconds and outcomes can be tragic!
Just for the record, mine wasn't a professional opinion, just an observation
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Old 28-02-2014, 17:38   #70
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Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Jazz View Post
Just for the record, mine wasn't a professional opinion, just an observation

Just a comment , that boat is a typical club racer, and would not be subject to any rules, it's a common sight to see race crew on the cabin top as boats come in from race night.

It would be very unusual for such a club racer to have harnesses for everyone. Very unusual
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Old 28-02-2014, 17:46   #71
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Sobering to watch, I got catch in unexpected surf type waves going over the tunnel at Hampton Roads Bridge tunnel from Ellizabeth River in Norfolk.... heavy current running out of the river into the bay, strong NE head wind...did not look too terrible. Got into it, a different story. 8-10 ft surf waves...luckily I was heading into them and my trusty Atomic kept my Alberg powering through the waves as her bow was buried....

My inexperience is what lead to me being in that situation....luckily I made it. and for the people in the video It looks like that made it too. Bet they learn from it...
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Old 28-02-2014, 17:46   #72
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Re: Bad Bad Day

I am glad I am so comfortable in the water...

I tow surf, meaning we tow each other into large waves. This Winter we have been out in 30' plus surf, been one of our smaller years. When one of us falls while surfing, it is up to the surfer on the ski to find the surfer, set up to get him out of the impact zone while keeping the ski safe.
We don't refer to this as a rescue, retrieval maybe.
Anyway, being out in 30' foot surf, waves breaking on your head, being pushed down so far into the darkness and tossed about like a ragdoll...I don't know, if I was where this happened, I would have grabbed my stand up and paddled out to keep the swimmers company or maybe floated one or two into the beach. What I mean is, I see nothing in this video to panic about.
Nothing.
A set of ten waves coming through at 30' plus while floating in the impact zone, yeah, time to keep your head straight. But peaked up short period waves like this video shows?
Where is my longboard?


You kids and your harnesses, jacklines, no one on deck, blah blah blah, stay away from most ports in Oregon, most of the year. While we close bars a few times a winter, the day shown here...we would be out surfing it. Its a good looking peak, right and left.
Reading posts here that say "I wouldn't cross that! CRAZY!!11!!!1! OMGZBBQ!1!11!!1!"...

My goodness.

Of course, these same "sailors" use epirbs on small lakes, and most likely harness up in any wind over 5 knots.
While wearing helmets.
Under bare poles.
Seriously.

I get safety but I cannot fathom the depth of the fearmongers and armchair sailors in this thread.

And at risk, I dare say it was better hashed out at reddit.



TL DR
The skipper did fine, every one did what they should have, no lives lost, better discussion at reddit.
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Old 28-02-2014, 18:00   #73
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Originally Posted by Oregon Waterman View Post
I am glad I am so comfortable in the water...

I tow surf, meaning we tow each other into large waves. This Winter we have been out in 30' plus surf, been one of our smaller years. When one of us falls while surfing, it is up to the surfer on the ski to find the surfer, set up to get him out of the impact zone while keeping the ski safe.
We don't refer to this as a rescue, retrieval maybe.
Anyway, being out in 30' foot surf, waves breaking on your head, being pushed down so far into the darkness and tossed about like a ragdoll...I don't know, if I was where this happened, I would have grabbed my stand up and paddled out to keep the swimmers company or maybe floated one or two into the beach. What I mean is, I see nothing in this video to panic about.
Nothing.
A set of ten waves coming through at 30' plus while floating in the impact zone, yeah, time to keep your head straight. But peaked up short period waves like this video shows?
Where is my longboard?


You kids and your harnesses, jacklines, no one on deck, blah blah blah, stay away from most ports in Oregon, most of the year. While we close bars a few times a winter, the day shown here...we would be out surfing it. Its a good looking peak, right and left.
Reading posts here that say "I wouldn't cross that! CRAZY!!11!!!1! OMGZBBQ!1!11!!1!"...

My goodness.

Of course, these same "sailors" use epirbs on small lakes, and most likely harness up in any wind over 5 knots.
While wearing helmets.
Under bare poles.
Seriously.

I get safety but I cannot fathom the depth of the fearmongers and armchair sailors in this thread.

And at risk, I dare say it was better hashed out at reddit.



TL DR
The skipper did fine, every one did what they should have, no lives lost, better discussion at reddit.
I don't doubt that you truly are a waterman but you don't surf a 35 footer and this crew overboard might be passengers who don't even swim.

We're all second guessing and just adding our opinions. My opinion is that a harness and jacklines on a large boat in bigger than normal sea conditions is a good idea.

I've been across the Columbia River Bar and it gets bouncy. I wear a harness and a PFD when I'm there just like the Coasties.
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Old 28-02-2014, 20:19   #74
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Inexperience and truly bad judgment caused this scenario, I also believe most of the "Posts" on this escapade were written in a drug induced state...the motor boat rescue was simply pathetic, coming in over powered, way too fast and at the wrong angle of approach for personnel recovery....
I have one strict rule....If in doubt stay out!! Bad decision to come in with those breakers up your butt!
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Old 28-02-2014, 21:08   #75
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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.... just before the big one hit that a large flow of water out appeared to slow the boat to a crawl.
My thoughts exactly. This is usual when an untypically big wave is approaching: it is preceded by a larger than usual trough, which causes a significant undertow, or outwards flow.

It is a classic "wrongly assigned cause" trap to draw a straight line between speed over ground and diesel fuel throughput.

Those who confidently assert that the skipper reduced power must have pretty good eyesight (to see him/her adjusting the urge lever), or hearing (to detect the revs dropping over the musical accompaniment -- I hope it wasn't provided courtesy of live musicians on the breakwater ! That's about as likely an inference as some of the more far-out ones I've read).

It seems highly unlikely that s/he would be doing anything but willing the boat forward: it would have been obvious to him or her that, even in the absence of a monster wave, s/he was far from 'out of the woods' at that location.
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