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Old 27-02-2014, 20:36   #31
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Re: Bad Bad Day

It's not about towing people on a line. It's about heaving a line to a swimmer a few feet away and getting him to the side of the boat, instead of having to surgically maneuver the launch to within arm-reaching distance, as this skipper was obligated to do. That's what forced them to make multiple approaches— they had to get the right part of the hull to within about a foot and a half of a hand slightly raised out of the water. A heaving line would have sped up this rescue three-fold.
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Old 27-02-2014, 20:51   #32
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Ok good fellows, now I'm a little confused
One says "Jack lines would not have prevented them going over"
I assume he means the knockdown?
And not the crew going overboard?

Another makes a comment about
"Armchair sailors posting bullshit info especially about harnesses"

So in this particular case
Would have a properly set up jack line
With all crew wearing harnesses with tethers
Kept them from getting swept off the boat after the knockdown?
Isn't this a perfect example of why this gear should be worn?
Just trying to learn
Thanx
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Old 27-02-2014, 21:51   #33
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Re: Bad Bad Day

I think I might have layed off for while and waited for a tide change or something to try an un-powerd bar run !! If ya don't have BIG power handy ya gotta watch the tides to make a run on a entrance like that !!! Ive seen to many boats both power and sail pitch pole on entrances like that on the west coast !! I think I hate entrances way more the big wind offshore !!
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Old 27-02-2014, 22:51   #34
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Most of the folks posting, obviously have never dealt with a situation with a man overboard. The sailboat helmsman didn't have a clue as to what to do after the wave hit, or as I watched the video a second time, it appears to me that the helmsman who was also likely the skipper was dumped overboard, leaving a less experienced crewman to deal with rescue... Clearly that person was in over their head. Prior to the wave, all seemed to be going well. After the wave hit, there was nobody at the helm.

The powerboat did an excellent job dealing with a rescue situation thrown at them quite unexpectedly. MOB is something to practice in case this happens to you... it's happened to me, two overboard.... hopefully, never again. But... stuff happens.
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Old 27-02-2014, 23:02   #35
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Re: Bad Bad Day

It's hard to know what to recommend, even with hindsight.

In a knockdown as violent as that, being tethered to a harness line could be a liability: you could end up being sliced by a rigging wire when the boat re-rights (imagine the whiplash if your tether got caught around something up the mast, or if you got thrown over the boom by the breaker, and then flicked back the other way on re-righting)

or you could end up being bashed to death on the winches or mast, by the tumbling action of the dumping wave, rather than (as they were) tossed overboard in good shape.

Being down below could also be dangerous, (imagine what could have broken free: cooker? battery? toolboxes? This was not a deepwater cruiser) and a crowded cockpit equally so.

Those thrown overboard could have been the lucky ones if the boat had sunk summarily, or been caught in another breaker.

I don't have any smart answers, short of avoiding such places in such conditions

You really can't safely enter such a harbour unless you have ample power to stay on the BACK side of a single, medium sized wave, all the way in, remembering it might turn into a biggie.

Which means being able to power up a rather steep hill, indefinitely.

No monohull ballast-keel sailing yacht is going to have that sort of power, to push it up a steep hill well in excess of hull speed.
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Old 27-02-2014, 23:17   #36
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Re: Bad Bad Day

incidentally I'm bemused to see so many people, including one from the right hand side of the ditch, call that MASSIVE breakwater a 'jetty'
???
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Old 28-02-2014, 04:27   #37
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After watching twice, definitely the unlucky massive wave. Fortunately for the folks in the water and the boat rescuing them, none that big happened again.

But... They obviously knew it was tough as they circled back once. Also, no one really films calm water harbor entrances. I would have prepared crew better with pfds, etc, at least.

I was wondering if the violence of the knockdown damaged the engine mounts or something such that the sailboat couldn't maneuver, but I also think its likely the skipper was thrown over and the crew left was inexperienced.
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Old 28-02-2014, 04:44   #38
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Re: Bad Bad Day

This boat is example of early production batch (2002-2004, if I remember correctly). On later builts the coachroof windows were modified.
This batch of Bavarias was equipped with Volvo MD 2030 engines, of 29 hp only. The boat was designed by J&J to take up to 50 hp diesel, but (once again - if I remember correctly) bigger engine was available as a option for later builts only. So - it's almost sure the boat on video was attempting this entrance under 29 hp MD 2030, what really made her underpowered in such circumstances.

I'm still debating (with myself) pros and cons of having small area of jib unfurled, but probably it would be of more hassle and danger than use in given conditions (loosing the grip in wave valleys).

Anyway - it's worth to have a look at satellite photo of the entrance, to understand that a helmsman (once entering the harbour) had not much choice, in given wind and wave direction, other than go relatively close to the breakwater wall.

For me the motorboat crew did excellent job. Cool minded and extremely effective under pressure.

Best regards

Tomasz
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Old 28-02-2014, 05:47   #39
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
incidentally I'm bemused to see so many people, including one from the right hand side of the ditch, call that MASSIVE breakwater a 'jetty'
???
In 'Murica, a breakwater is parallel or close to it along the natural shoreline, positioned to block wave action.
A jetty or groin if you will, is to help stop erosion or keep in place a man made channel. They can be used in combination, like the entrance shown in this video.



How did I do?

As a surfer, I would paddle this spot, lefts and rights, fairly clean. Easy paddle out off the jetty where the guy shot the video. Just have to deal with the odd sailboat or two coming through.

I think the sailboat did fine for the conditions. Some one had the boat under control and heading to better water within seconds of the knockdown. I watch the CG do these training runs in 15' surf across our bar, intentional rolls, good times.
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Old 28-02-2014, 07:11   #40
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Wow..just wow. Stupid all the way around.
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Old 28-02-2014, 07:29   #41
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Wow..just wow. Stupid all the way around.
Who ?
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Old 28-02-2014, 07:50   #42
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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Wow..just wow. Stupid all the way around.
That's easy for you to write sitting at your computer, second guessing what the skipper who go dumped overboard should have done. Haven't you ever sat outside a harbor entrance and wondered if you were making the correct decision to enter? Are those entrance waves breaking? Look's a little rough? Many times, the actual conditions can appear very different from outside.

From what I saw, there was no prior indication of breaking waves and pictures of the harbor entrance on a google search indicate that the entrance can be tricky with swells, and that the locals probably expect to surf in occasionally. The unfortunate fellow just got hit by an unexpected BIG WAVE from the wrong angle and got pitched overboard. From the angle, I don't think he saw it coming.

I call this one bad luck... not stupid. IMHO
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Old 28-02-2014, 08:00   #43
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Re: Bad Bad Day

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I call this one bad luck... not stupid. IMHO
+1

The decision to go for a harbour was itself probably somewhat risky one, but we know nothing about underlying reasons. Calling somebody stupid is easy...
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Old 28-02-2014, 08:06   #44
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Re: Bad Bad Day

The events took place here on the south shore of the Bay of Biscay. Une entrée de port catastrophe à Zumaia !

If you watch the vid carefully, you can see that they were lining up for their run and that they carefully chose that line. I don't know the port, but the French-language commentary says nothing about another possible approach. Strikes me that coming in at a lower angle to the wave action would have been worse. An overhead view (early in the bid) suggests they pretty much have to come straight in, as they did.

Other things I noted:

-- there really is only the one breaking wave. The skipper got caught ...
-- but not quite flatfooted. You can see the folks on the foredeck reaching for handholds just before the wave hit, so someone saw what was coming.
-- It looks as if the people who got thrown out were in the cockpit. I seem to see the foredeck folks still aboard.

Connemara

PS: The French-language commentary here (Une entrée de port mouvementée en 10 images incroyables ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles) says the boat had a 75 hp motor.
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Old 28-02-2014, 08:17   #45
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Re: Bad Bad Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
That's easy for you to write sitting at your computer, second guessing what the skipper who go dumped overboard should have done. Haven't you ever sat outside a harbor entrance and wondered if you were making the correct decision to enter? Are those entrance waves breaking? Look's a little rough? Many times, the actual conditions can appear very different from outside.

From what I saw, there was no prior indication of breaking waves and pictures of the harbor entrance on a google search indicate that the entrance can be tricky with swells, and that the locals probably expect to surf in occasionally. The unfortunate fellow just got hit by an unexpected BIG WAVE from the wrong angle and got pitched overboard. From the angle, I don't think he saw it coming.

I call this one bad luck... not stupid. IMHO
+1

Bad luck! The wave was a GIANT one, way out of proportion to the others coming in. This wave came all the way over the massive seawall! So it wasn't even coming from the same direction as the others; he shoudl have been sheltered from it. I see no stupidity of any kind here. A very good work, very quick thinking, getting the boat right into safe water within seconds of popping up after the knock-down.
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