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Old 21-06-2008, 05:02   #1
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B & R rig, on a Hunter?

The B&R Mast

Without backstay. The link is a good ad for B&R rig without backstay, but does it work in storm and reality, if you want to cross the atlantic? Offcause it works, but it feels little unsafe without backstay. And downwind is little more difficult. I have no experience of it at all.

Any more comments about it?
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Old 21-06-2008, 05:55   #2
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Here’s what the inventors (Bergstrom & Ridder) of the B&G rig have to say:
United States Patent # 3866558 (Filed September 5, 1973)
Inventors: Bergstrom; Lars Rune (Varmdo, SW), Ridder; Georg Sven Olof (Lidingo, SW)
Goto:
United States Patent: 3866558
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Old 21-06-2008, 09:31   #3
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Thanks,

What yacht brand use this kind of mast/rig except hunter?
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Old 22-06-2008, 21:38   #4
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Just about every Catamaran built uses some sort of variant on the B&R rig, were the loads can be twice to three time foot per foot compared to a mono haul.
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Old 22-06-2008, 22:58   #5
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Don't worry about strength, they are plenty strong enough.

They can be a real bear to tune properly, and you already know about the downwind issues. They do let the boat carry a full-battened sail with a large roach, a much more efficient design for upwind work. Like anything to do with boatrs, you pick your poison.

The stupidest rig I have ever sailed was a Hunter 44 with (of course) a B&R rig, but an in-mast roller furling system that prevented the use of any roach at all. The worst of ALL worlds.

Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
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Old 23-06-2008, 13:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKetch View Post

Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
Thanks, just wondering what people had to say about it. Yes, i know, i have 1000 questions left before a atlantic cross.
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Old 18-04-2016, 05:14   #7
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKetch View Post
Don't worry about strength, they are plenty strong enough.

They can be a real bear to tune properly, and you already know about the downwind issues. They do let the boat carry a full-battened sail with a large roach, a much more efficient design for upwind work. Like anything to do with boatrs, you pick your poison.

The stupidest rig I have ever sailed was a Hunter 44 with (of course) a B&R rig, but an in-mast roller furling system that prevented the use of any roach at all. The worst of ALL worlds.

Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
The Selden in-mast furling system on a Hunter 44 allows full vertical battens with a large roach.
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Old 18-04-2016, 06:21   #8
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

They are a pain in the ass to tune nice, the sweep back spreaders work like a backstay , no real downwind at all, more like a zip and zip course, the uppers put a lot of strain in the plates , dificult to get a proper forestay tension, they have some prebend in the spar and this is not inmast furler friendly,,,, like others say, Hunter is the only one using and Pňgo,,, maybe others not sure,,, not my favorite kind of rig and i hate it when we have some one waiting in the rigging shop...
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Old 18-04-2016, 11:42   #9
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

Other than trying to sail wing and wing they are fine.

But I am going to have to disagree with Neil, Pogo does not use a BnR, they use a very traditional multihull rig. The difference is that the BnR uses a thin wall section with lots of jumpers and intermediates while a multihull rig uses a heavy mast section, cap shrouds, and normally just one intermediate. Though both use swept back spreaders.
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Old 18-04-2016, 14:52   #10
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandywine View Post
Just about every Catamaran built uses some sort of variant on the B&R rig, were the loads can be twice to three time foot per foot compared to a mono haul.
The spars on multihulls that rotate aren't really B&R and generally incorporate 'diamonds'. The shrouds leading from the 'hounds' to outer chainplates are independent.
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Old 18-04-2016, 16:01   #11
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

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Originally Posted by freetime View Post
Thanks, just wondering what people had to say about it. Yes, i know, i have 1000 questions left before a atlantic cross.
I've sailed with a B&R rig the past 5 years. It sails just fine! And yes you can wing-on-wing it, but it is a tight sail point and hard to hold except in calm conditions and I only do it in a tight seaway.
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Old 18-04-2016, 16:33   #12
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

I have helped friends take down their masts down. Mast head rig sticks seem to weigh twice as much as a B&R. Does this not effect righting moment?


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Old 19-04-2016, 01:28   #13
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

Does this type of rigging completely prevent from shaping mast and forestay on the fly?

Best,

Jack.
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Old 19-04-2016, 10:41   #14
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

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Originally Posted by Sailor Doug View Post
I have helped friends take down their masts down. Mast head rig sticks seem to weigh twice as much as a B&R. Does this not effect righting moment?


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Doug,

It's a tradeoff. You can build a very very light rig if you use lots of spreaders and intermediate stays. But the rigging itself adds weight, and adds windage. Or you can use an unstayed rig at the expense of weight and mast size. From an engineering standpoint they are both possible.

The magic of a rig design is to balance these factors to end up with a rig that works in harmony with the rest of the boat. As well as takes into account the amount of money you are willing to throw at the problem.

Just as an example... A full on race boat may use a smaller mast but instead of using wire shrouds will replace them with extruded unidirection airfoil carbon shrouds which have minimal drag and weight but may wind up costing as much as the stick itself. But they are small, light, and strong, so you can use more of them to build a smaller mast.


And RM isn't everything. For slower boats it pretty much is, but as speeds increase aero drag makes up a larger and larger proportion of the total drag. Controlling this drag has become a source of substantial gains on fast boats.
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Old 19-04-2016, 13:18   #15
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?

If you will entertain the opinion of an old dinghy sailor...

The B&R rig is, was, and forever will be a piece of crap. It was originally developed under the heavy competitive pressure of the IOR period. Its claim to fame was increased upwind boatspeed due to a smaller mast section and in this, I think, it delivered some small, but real, benefit. This was an era of ever-smaller mast sections on offshore boats, held up by increasingly complex rigging and hydraulics, and the skill of their crews. Total loss of rig offshore, once almost unheard of, was becoming commonplace. (One sparbuilder was heard to murmur, "Lord, how I love that repeat business.")

Even under competitive pressure the B&R rig never really caught on. The swept-back spreaders bit into the main. The lack of backstays was a lubberly set-up for offshore work. And the small section, its raison d'ętre, was disconcerting.

But then an odd thing began occurring. While disappearing on racing boats, builders of "cruising" boats and recreational sailboats, especially bottom-market brands such as Hunter, began to put the rig on their offerings. Cynically promoted as benefitting performance, the real reason was, of course, cost reduction. Apparently, some wire and a few more spreaders were cheaper for the builder to buy than a properly-sized spar section.

It won't surprise you to learn I would never consider a B&R rig on any craft, no matter the vessel's intended purpose. Now will come the avalanche of indignant and angry respones, "I have a catamaran with...!" "I have sailed for eight years with...!" Please, save it. An opinion was sought and given; nothing you say will change my mind in the slightest.

Paul
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