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Old 07-10-2014, 08:56   #46
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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And at least houses have building codes.
The codes are only as good as the inspection enforcing them. Ask me how I know.
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:02   #47
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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Exactly what my surveyor had said. In 2010 he placed a replacement value on my than 30 yr old 36footer at about $350-400K. I was floored. He said that's why the company went out of business after 5 years and only 80 boats built. In the early 80s their 36 footers were going for $80-100K when new Catalinas 36 were about $40-45K. And the typical "boat show" buyers expected at least a 45ft+ for $80K+
What kind of boat do you have?
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:02   #48
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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1...In the early days of glass boats, they were built for a market that was split into fewer niches and that expected boats to be built about as heavy as a wooden vessel. The upshot was a lot more vessels being built as racer/cruisers that were expected to race offshore as well as inshore and so they had the berths and build to do that.

2...As time went on and sailing got more affordable a lot more people got into it so more niches developed and become more important economically, ie racers (J-boat) and Cruiser/racer coastal boats (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, ...)with amenities geared to staying in a marina or at least at anchor almost every night.

3...Fewer people (relatively) were looking to do offshore cruising or racing.
Very good analysis, thanks. Just some additional "glass-half-empty" observations.

1...Heavy construction has reportedly also to do with the fact that early fiberglass builders overbuilt because of the lack of technology about the material. While fiberglass was used during WWII, for recreational boats it was literally brand new stuff. I agree, the layouts were very similar to older wooden boats. Why? It comes back to the simple answer I gave in an earlier post: the layouts worked at sea. Newer "layouts" didn't start to be developed until the late 70s early 80s.

2...The fewer niches had not yet developed because there literally was no "leisure boating" industry. Because of fiberglass, it then developed, because the material reduced maintenance and the boats were less expensive to buy and maintain.

3...From a purely statistical approach, it wasn't that fewer people were into offshore, it was that there were tons more folks into boating who had no desire to go offshore. There could well be as many, if not more, who do so, but the sheer volume of boaters who do local or coastal simply made offshore a smaller proportion, not necessarily in volume.

Just a different way to look at the same points.

I still maintain that the old wooden boat approach to layout, whether defined by the construction or by the success of layouts, determine the usefulness of a boat at sea: sea berths, location of galleys, etc. IIRC, even as late as just after WWI, Maurice Griffiths wrote a series of great books about cruising the east coast of the UK (the "Swatchways" series), many noting that the galleys were still in the forepeak! Why? 'Cuz it was traditional to have the galley slaves do that work up forward while the owners & his guests occupied the saloon.

There are undoubtedly many good books on the evolution of yacht/boat layouts (Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts), as well as one particularly good one about the history of fiberglass boat building (name and & author escape me at the moment).
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:20   #49
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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There are undoubtedly many good books on the evolution of yacht/boat layouts (Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts), as well as one particularly good one about the history of fiberglass boat building (name and & author escape me at the moment).
"Hearts of Glass" by Dan Spurr. I want it but haven't gotten it yet.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:06   #50
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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The codes are only as good as the inspection enforcing them. Ask me how I know.
Or if money is passing hands under the table.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:16   #51
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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Or if money is passing hands under the table.
Probably in SC where you live and certainly big chunks of LA, but not here in CA and not in WA.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:07   #52
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Did I miss an explanation about why you only want 90's boats, or was that just a starting point for this thread but it's not really a must have?
I'm not set on a 90s boat, an 80s boat is probably more likely actually. I just wanted to compare availability of 80s vs 90s, and thought it curious that I could find very few 90s boats that aren't cruiser-racers (lots of Beaneteaus, Catalinas, Hunters).

So far the "old" boats (early 80s) I've looked at, some were not very well kept up to date. A Bristol 35.5 had an original breaker panel from '78 that looked like it came off the set of "2001 A Space Odessey." Now an old breaker panel is no problem, but it makes me suspect the condition of all the wiring, wonder how long the black mold covering the interior hull has been there, and one thing leads to another. That's not to say there aren't well maintained old boats though.

But, I know friends who have done Mexico on a newish Hunter 44DS. That's too pricey for me, and it looks like a condo inside, but they did fine (true, no ocean crossings, but the Oregon coast isn't trivial). And they could sail fast.

I don't really know how slow a boat like a Westsail or Bristol is, but imagine it would be pretty slow in the light wind conditions we get in Puget Sound - usually < 10 kt in the summer, and many days have long stretches of 0-5kt. Since phase 1 for me is PNW and offshore doesn't come till phase 2, I'm trying to optimize for both construction and speed - like what Neptune's Gear said (post #37).

But then you read articles like this - that you can't have your cake and eat it too -
Sail Far Live Free - Sailboats, Sailing News, and Gear: You Can't Have Offshore Sailboat Cake and Eat it Too
Maybe that's true, except that the number of people having their cake and eating it too is proof that it's not entirely true.

Anyway, obviously I have more work to do (talk to more brokers, go to some PSCC meetings and see what some other cruisers are sailing, etc).
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:26   #53
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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Probably in SC where you live and certainly big chunks of LA, but not here in CA and not in WA.
I don't think so in Charleston county. But each municipality seems to have their own. I've found them to be quite helpful having contracted out several buildings for my own use. I'm a critic and a skeptic but give credit where credit is due. They are bears about hurricane tie downs.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:29   #54
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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I don't think so in Charleston county. But each municipality seems to have their own. I've found them to be quite helpful having contracted out several buildings for my own use. I'm a critic and a skeptic but give credit where credit is due. They are bears about hurricane tie downs.
How did we stray this far?
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:11   #55
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

As I think you already realize, there are tradeoffs to all of them. The J boat that is fast and inexpensive and just fine for coastal cruising, will pound hard and be extremely uncomfortable further from shore, especially if the weather gets bad. You'll need to do lots of mods for tankage and anchoring and many other areas to make it into a very enjoyable cruising boat. If you go aground with that unprotected rudder, your whole being will be devoted to getting it fixed ASAP and that might be very problematic in remote areas where an unintended grounding might happen. A boat like that which goes to weather really nicely in protected seas won't be much fun trying to go to weather offshore when the waves bet bigger and you are smashing hard into each one. That sort of thing can be fun for the first 30 minutes or so, then it gets really old!

On the the other hand, a heavy slow, Westsail 32 type boat will bore you to tears in the light airs where it sounds like you plan to do most of your sailing but be much more comfortable offshore.

One boat that I found to be a good compromise between these two extremes is the Nordic 44 and there are two of them for sale on Yachtworld in your area. I don't know anything about either of these two particular boats but mine sailed very well and was built to a quite high standard, sailed well, and took good care of me in some very rough conditions.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:22   #56
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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How did we stray this far?
I think I started it trying to compare houses to boats in that build quality has taken a back seat to size, amenities and cost
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:31   #57
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

Having owned an older "bluewater" boat and now owning a 2001 Hunter I don't feel build quality has gone down at all. In fact the build quality on my Hunter is so much better than my last boat!

Some people need to spend more time working on boats and less time reading old books!

I remember a few years ago contacting a broker about a "quality" boat only to find that it had deck core rot. When I commented to him that it seemed a lot of money for a boat with core rot he said "yeah but it is an X Brand and when you fix that you will have a great boat". My response was how could he tell me it was a great quality boat when it already had core rot.
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Old 07-10-2014, 13:31   #58
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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Having owned an older "bluewater" boat and now owning a 2001 Hunter I don't feel build quality has gone down at all. In fact the build quality on my Hunter is so much better than my last boat!

Some people need to spend more time working on boats and less time reading old books!

I remember a few years ago contacting a broker about a "quality" boat only to find that it had deck core rot. When I commented to him that it seemed a lot of money for a boat with core rot he said "yeah but it is an X Brand and when you fix that you will have a great boat". My response was how could he tell me it was a great quality boat when it already had core rot.
Sort of like a Rolls Royce with bad compression versus a brand new Chevy.
The Rolls will need an engine rebuild which is a pretty serious repair and will be expensive, but once that's done, you'll have quite a car. Even a brand new Chevy is just a run of the mill production car and always will be. Maybe you want a Chevy for its commonality and because you can afford a new(er) one, and that's perfectly valid, but I understand the point the salesman was making.

Deck core DOES require a serious repair but it's more likely caused by improperly bedded fasteners than by anything the builder did wrong when the boat was being built. It's just something that you get an estimate to have repaired and then figure that into the purchase price.
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Old 07-10-2014, 13:38   #59
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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What kind of boat do you have?
Mariner 36 (NH).
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Old 07-10-2014, 16:21   #60
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

Cape Dory 36 or 40, unfortunately not many found on the West Coast of the US. Check Yachtworld, I know of one CD 40 that has just come back to the PNW from I think a 4 or 5 year cruise and is for sale. You could also check the Cape Dory forum CapeDory.org. Hope that helps.
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