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Old 06-10-2014, 12:29   #31
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

How many in the crew including yourself?
Kids?
Budget to buy & outfit?
Do you have a minimum size? Max?
Preferences for full keel, sketch, ketch, yawl, cutter?


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Old 06-10-2014, 19:45   #32
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Thanks for all the replies!

I know the bluewater vs production debate has been discussed many times and I've read a lot of those threads. The problem is I left those threads with fewer answers than I started with - maybe that question is simply one that has no answer.

I was more interested in 1) the philosophical question of why more bluewater boats weren't built 1990-2000 (or after). I don't have hard data, but comparing bluewater yacht availability in yachtworld searches of 1970-80, 1980-90 to 1990-2000, each older 10-year period has far more boats that are typically considered bluewater than the later 10-year period. So the only explanations to that seem to be either manufacturers stopped making them as much for some reason, demand went down, or technology advancements in sailing brought production boats on equal footing with classic bluewater designs.

The second part of my question was more practical - it's quite simply frustrating searching for the right boat - since yachtworld and broker listings don't have search parameters that allow me to filter out boats without the right attributes.

And there's also the confusion from one set of people saying bluewater boats are models that represent the 1% of the sailboat market (ie, they're very rare and hard to find), and the other set of people saying the opposite - that the right production boat can be fine too. So it's frustratingly hard to know which group of people are right, since there's little data on this, it's all opinions. Quite probably both opinions are right, but that still doesn't help figure out where my sweet spot is on the speed - build - price tradeoff continuum. It's a big decision, so just don't want screw it up.
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Old 06-10-2014, 19:54   #33
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
How many in the crew including yourself?
Kids?
Budget to buy & outfit?
Do you have a minimum size? Max?
Preferences for full keel, sketch, ketch, yawl, cutter?

Adelie
2 (couple), although friends or crew help would be possible for tough passages. But my plan would be to equip the boat for singlehanding, for safety + enjoyability reasons.

Budget pretty flexible, let's says 40-120k including outfitting (but 60-80k looks doable for this size range + age so that's what I'm looking in primarily).

Min size 32, max 40 (marinas in Seattle too expensive past that - and I'll have to have it in a marina for a while).

My ideal boat would be all fiberglass exterior, strong hull, medium displacement, well built keel (but probably not full), skeg protected rudder, cutter or sloop rig (ketch ok but not 1st choice), ample tankage, livable interior, v-berth and aft berth. (Note I said ideal - obviously will have to compromise somewhere, the challenge is figuring out where )
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Old 06-10-2014, 19:59   #34
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

As to your question #1. May be it was because there are fewer potential offshore sailor. I think the lastfew generations a) are not willing to put up with discomforts of offshore, b) don't have the background to do it on the cheap yet lack financial resources to do it by buying what the industry thinks an offshore boat should be and c) going offshore is more of a function of one's attitude and aptitude and the boat is secondary. Plenty of of well found offshore boat have floundered thanks to their skippers lack of common sense or ability. And plenty of production boat have circumnavigated without major problems.

In 2012 I've met a couple who were in their 2nd year of circumnavigation in almost new Hanse 54. Two years later I find out they're on their 3rd rudder. And each time it was the quality of the parts or some other boat issue and not their sailsmanship. When we met them it was at a sailing club party and there were several high caliber sailors there. Think world champions at various times and in various classes. After the couple left all of those guys were wondering why did those people chose a dock queen boat with "ikea" style insides for their adventure. Turns out the investor who sponsored them was not a sailor but some nuveau riche european dude who wanted a boat which he could boast about to his buddies and to entertain his clients. No thought of offshore sailing went into this boat but for the couple sailing it it was their only chance to get going so they took it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 20:24   #35
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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>>maybe that question is simply one that has no answer.

Yes, there is no one answer. It is a really personal decision.

>> the philosophical question of why more bluewater boats weren't built 1990->>2000 (or after).

it is certaintly true that the heavy, woody, designs that used to be considered "true blue water boats" have declined in share; but it also true that alternate 'blue water" design template have emerged (like the ovni, and pogo).

>>it's quite simply frustrating searching for the right boat - since yachtworld >>and broker listings don't have search parameters that allow me to filter out >>boats without the right attributes.

Rather than just doing website searches . . . . I would suggest you call some of the broker who specialize in offshore boats, and some who are near you, and ask them for their recommendations. Reach out and talk to people in person.

>> one set of people saying bluewater boats are models that represent the 1% >>of the sailboat market (ie, they're very rare and hard to find), and the other >>set of people saying the opposite - that the right production boat can be fine >>too.

Back to point #1 . . . There is no single answer for everyone . . . . But it is a certain undebatable fact than many people have done major successful cruises on simple production boats. It may not be for everyone, but it for sure can and is done.

>> It's a big decision, so just don't want screw it up.
I am going to tell you again two hard things.
#1 success will be more about you than about the boat. It will be about your skills and knowledge and mostly about your attitude.
And #2 you simply don't know enough about your own cruising preferences yet to know which boat will be best for you, and we cannot tell you. The best you can do is to get the basics right and then go try it and learn.

.....
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Old 06-10-2014, 20:26   #36
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Sorry, I threw "affordable" into the title just to rule out extravagent answers like "buy a custom boat" or "order a new Swan".

Price is not a problem as much as knowing how wide a net I can cast. I can easily find boats in the local Seattle market that are quite comfortable to live on and under 60k, but may not be well built enough for my long-range plans. There are a lot of Catalina's and C&C's. Some C&C's may meet the mark, but no C&C's appear on the "John Neal's Boats to Consider for Offshore Cruising" or AtomVoyages.com "Good Old Boats List".

It seems like I have to rule out 90% of boats on the market simply for being production boats, and then the remaining 10% leaves slim pickings - often very old boats or ones not in good condition.

I could expand the bounds of my search - and consider a delivery from California or further - but there are a *lot* of boats for sale in the Seattle - Oregon - Vancouver region, so I'm hard pressed to think I need to resort to searching abroad yet.

What it comes down to is every boat is a compromise - but I'm not yet sure which aspects are ok for me to compromise on. I know people who have done PNW -> Mexico or Hawaii on boats definitely not on the "bluewater boats" lists. But I'm also not sure are Mexico and Hawaii not really bluewater?

There are several C&C 35s (Landfall and MK III) for 30-40k vs two Pacific Seacraft 34s for 70-80k. The Pac Sea's are twice the price, but they're certainly on the bluewater boats lists. What I'm trying to figure out is why they're valued at twice the price, when C&C Landfalls have also been known to sail offshore (but again, conflicting advice - some people say they're worthy, and others like Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising say to avoid them).

Re: DoubleWhisky's suggestions - thanks! - not to punch holes in your suggestions - specific ideas are exactly what I'm looking for, but...
Hallberg-Rassy - there's only 1 on the market in PNW (AK, BC, ID, OR, WA) under 40', and it's $279k - outside my budget.
Najad - only 1 under 40', none have their prices listed (on yachtworld) and it's a 2014 boat (so not really a used boat, likely expensive).
Malo - 1 45'er for $600k.
Rustler, Nordship, Bowman - couldn't find any.
you do need to look at a well finished Corbin 39. perhaps the greatest cruising boat ever
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Old 06-10-2014, 20:59   #37
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Here is my opinion. I've "done" the south pacific quite a bit, and further afield.

You might like to have a look at the current cruising fleets, the round the world rallies, sail Indonesia, etc etc. There are more production boats out there doing it than any other type. Many are fin keel, spade rudder. Almost all of them make it home..

Many on this forum don't like modern designs, and all boats are a compromise. Yes, try to avoid the ones with "ikea" type interiors without substance, which are becoming more common, and look very tired after a few years liveaboard. Get a proper survey!! Production boats CAN be good.

Old does NOT mean knackered. I just had a friend sell a Hallberg Rassy 42 in Malaysia, for around $180K Ausy. Late 80's vintage, all in great working condition, and ready to leave. Only issue was the teak decks were tired.

IMO the long keeled, heavy cruiser is an antique, slow 4knot POS. A modern production boat is light, fast, sails well both by and large, and is easy to live in. Yes, it has a bit more motion in really heavy weather, but you'll try to avoid that, right?

My boat (Fin Keel, Spade rudder) was built in 1988, is 40ft and design displacement (dry) is 5800kg. Realistically we are about 7500kg in cruising trim. 3 cabin, very comfortable for 2 or even 4. She is about 25% faster than the HR above, especially on the wind. I wouldn't go back to an older/slower design. Speed can be safety. At sea, we average a bit over 6 knots - or 150-175 n. miles per day. If anything, next time I'd go for more performance, especially in the light - cruisers spend a lot of time in light conditions, and sailing rather than motoring is way better!

Just my opinion. Others differ, sometimes vehemently! Good luck with your search!
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Old 06-10-2014, 21:15   #38
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessellate View Post
I was more interested in 1) the philosophical question of why more bluewater boats weren't built 1990-2000 (or after). I don't have hard data, but comparing bluewater yacht availability in yachtworld searches of 1970-80, 1980-90 to 1990-2000, each older 10-year period has far more boats that are typically considered bluewater than the later 10-year period. So the only explanations to that seem to be either manufacturers stopped making them as much for some reason, demand went down, or technology advancements in sailing brought production boats on equal footing with classic bluewater designs.
In the early days of glass boats, they were built for a market that was split into fewer niches and that expected boats to be built about as heavy as a wooden vessel. The upshot was a lot more vessels being built as racer/cruisers that were expected to race offshore as well as inshore and so they had the berths and build to do that.

As time went on and sailing got more affordable a lot more people got into it so more niches developed and become more important economically, ie racers (J-boat) and Cruiser/racer coastal boats (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, ...)with amenities geared to staying in a marina or at least at anchor almost every night. Fewer people (relatively) were looking to do offshore cruising or racing. As I see it these 2 niches dominate the current market because that is where the demand is and where there is the most turnover in boats by current owners with money. The folks with the money will always want the fastest thing out there which usually means new or they will want the boat with the latest amenities, again new boat.

The current group of 'bluewater' builders with low rate production lines are selling to a smaller market, to a more knowledgeable clientele and are competing against the pool of older boats that weren't designed for bluewater but are capable of it.

If you want fast or trendy it needs to be new, if you want sturdy, new or old.

Keep in mind these are generalizations and there are certainly manufacturers that don't fit the trend.

Quote:
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The second part of my question was more practical - it's quite simply frustrating searching for the right boat - since yachtworld and broker listings don't have search parameters that allow me to filter out boats without the right attributes.

And there's also the confusion from one set of people saying bluewater boats are models that represent the 1% of the sailboat market (ie, they're very rare and hard to find), and the other set of people saying the opposite - that the right production boat can be fine too. So it's frustratingly hard to know which group of people are right, since there's little data on this, it's all opinions. Quite probably both opinions are right, but that still doesn't help figure out where my sweet spot is on the speed - build - price tradeoff continuum. It's a big decision, so just don't want screw it up.
From daysailor to bluewater boat is a continuum with no hard demarcation points between categories despite what anyone says, same as a lot of things in life. For different people the line will be drawn in different places on the continuum.
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Old 06-10-2014, 22:40   #39
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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2 (couple), although friends or crew help would be possible for tough passages. But my plan would be to equip the boat for singlehanding, for safety + enjoyability reasons.

Budget pretty flexible, let's says 40-120k including outfitting (but 60-80k looks doable for this size range + age so that's what I'm looking in primarily).

Min size 32, max 40 (marinas in Seattle too expensive past that - and I'll have to have it in a marina for a while).

My ideal boat would be all fiberglass exterior, strong hull, medium displacement, well built keel (but probably not full), skeg protected rudder, cutter or sloop rig (ketch ok but not 1st choice), ample tankage, livable interior, v-berth and aft berth. (Note I said ideal - obviously will have to compromise somewhere, the challenge is figuring out where )
Did I miss an explanation about why you only want 90's boats, or was that just a starting point for this thread but it's not really a must have?

Let's start with accommodations. This presumes you do eventually go offshore and don't want to change boats. A couple means you need one good seaberth and a place to sit for the on-watch person. You may have help for longer passages, and visitors while still nearer to home.
So lets say 2 seaberths and a place to sit. Going offshore you are unlikely to get more than 1 person, and you probably won't have room for more. What are good seaberths? Pilot berth are excellent, quarterberths are very good (a little more motion and exposure to the elements coming in the companionway but more privacy, settees (fore and aft seating at the dinner table) are OK/good (requires conversion nightly and may be easily disturbed by folks going forward to the head in the middle of the night. Aft cabins (behind the cockpit) are also OK/good (more privacy, but more motion too and it's harder to get the berths arranged fore and aft rather than at an angle following the hull). Rear cabin (under the cockpit) are OK, harder to arrange things to sleep for and aft when underway but motion is about the same as a quarterberth. Dinettes (transverse benches) don't work well (requires more effort to convert usually and then requires subdividing so the sleeper is only in a single, less distance to roll after a tack or gybe).

With a couple or 3-some everybody gets a berth underway. In a bouncy anchorage, 2 get berths and any 3rd sleeps on the floor, or sits and maintains an anchor watch.

With more guests on board you will be needing to keep your passage legs short, and spend most nights in protected anchorages so that the v-berth can be used.

Let's assume $100k buy and outfit. That means you have about $70-75k to buy. If you bought older you could spend less on the boat, more on outfitting and come out closer to some of your other desires.

In "The Capable Cruiser" Lin&Larry Pardey discussed the Xmas 1982 debacle in Cabo San Lucas. Out of 40ish sailboats anchored there 29 were driven ashore in a short unexpected storm. A few were completely trashed, some were un-salvageable, some were salvaged, a few were almost unscathed. A number of the cruisers made the observation that the Pardey's agreed with that boats
that were over about 37' long were not really manageable by a couple in the conditions experienced.

I believe the same holds true sailing offshore, past a certain size couple has a hard time dealing with all the forces and problems that crop up and a smaller boat would be easier. While a larger boat will weather breaking waves better than a smaller boat, the overall odds are better in the smaller boat.

Lets put a 37' limit on boat length. This should still give you a boat that is long enough for at least 2 good seaberths.

Now you're getting to the point where limiting the boat to 1990's becomes a problem. The point I made in my last post about changes in the market mean most newer production boats aren't going to have 2 good seaberths. They may have one and one or two mediocre berths. The older boats were designed as racer/cruisers with the thought that some of the racing would be long distance or offshore so there were more good berths on the boats.

Now the end of your list. If you go back to 1960's designs a lot of them had minimal wood on deck. As I previously indicated they were built heavier because that was a market expectation that had not yet been overcome. A large fin area is good for damping rolling which makes for a more comfortable ride and more comfortable anchoring. Older boats tended to have larger fins, though not necessarily heavier. Skegs are nice way to deal with a certain dangers, but they will be in relatively short supply.
You will need to define what you mean by moderate displacement. Keep in mind that the definition of moderate has crept over the decades. I would say moderate is 250-350 DLR, but DLR is not such a good measure of anything so I don't put much weight on that.
I would say that most boats have been built as sloops for the last half century. A cutter would be a better offshore boat to me and that is fairly straightforward to change. I intend to do so with my next boat.
Ample tankage is a bit subjective, but it can be installed if what comes with the boat doesn't meet your desires.
Define livable interior. If you are want a stylish interior, then that starts to conflict with the need for underway berths. While passagemaking will only be 10-25% of your time the effects of poor sleep can lead to bad judgements and unpleasant experiences, whereas at anchor or in the marina a layout less conducive to entertaining is an annoyance.
Most boats have v-berths.
Good luck finding an aft cabin or rear berth under the cockpit in this size range. I can name a few if you like, but not many.

YAMAHA 36 has an aft cabin, 2 pilot berths, and lots of sail area but only a partial skeg.

One last observation is that cutting your buy price and going with an older boat will leave you with a lot of money for upgrades.
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Old 06-10-2014, 23:12   #40
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

When I started sailing as a crew in the club race, it was a fin keel / spade rudder. Most of the yachties coming through SEA have been all sorts of design.

I have very good friends who owned Oceanis 47' sugar scoop. They loved it. Been everywhere. East coast/Panama/Galapagos/Fatu Hiva /Australia/Indonesia/Thailand/Indian Ocean/Chagos.

I don't know much about boat design and can only share what I hear from others who been around Indonesia and South Pacific esp. in the Kiribati Island.

One friend shared his experience that on several occasion in South Pacific anchorages his boat swing and hit a coral head. He explained if his rudder had been an unsupported spade rudder, he would have suffered serious damage in area so remote from haul out facilities.

North Borneo, Kota Kinabalu has these huge log/timber that escaped the catchment in the river mouth floating just breaking the surface that is really hard to see. A hit on one of these logs would severely damage any exposed props and fin keel or spade rudder. While a full keel will roll over and hopefully pass underneath without all the fanfare.

Same thing with unmarked or poorly marked fishing traps in indonesian waters from Kupang to Bali. One friend knew 2 boats that were seriously damaged hitting these fishing trap.

So my friend suggested that a full keel with protected prop and rudder with the ability to lean on pilings/wall to do some bottom work is a plus for his boat going to remote places without proper haul out facilities.

I choose a traditional design which is a real pain in going astern. Anyway, boat are meant to go forward .

One thing I am careful to avoid, being a boat builder. Enjoy your search.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:32   #41
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

I don't think there is any change to how many "bluewater" boats are being produced. All I think has changed is that the books people use to call boats "bluewater" have gotten old.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:21   #42
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

I think it's very similar to the houses built today, 50 yrs ago the standard construction and indeed even the timber was of a higher grade, but houses began to be built to a lower standard.
Why? Because the house that was bigger, but cost less to buy always outsold the better built, but smaller house.
Whats different in boats?
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:30   #43
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

I noticed that many people stay away from some good boats for purely cosmetic or easily rectifiable alleged deficiencies. It's like not buying an otehrwise great house because the bedrooms are painted garish colors. IMO, as long as the boat's bones are solid and the price is right anything else can be easily modified. First of all we should go with the assumption that a potential offshore sailor is very self suffient, handy and/or mechanically inclined and is or wants to be a jack of all trades, at least as far as his boat is concerned. Otherwise it is likely his offshore experience will not be very long term. That said I think very few well constructed boats which were originally made for coastal cruising can't be modified to go offshore. A set of lockers above the settees can easily be taken down and made into a pilot berth with even minimal woodworking skills by the owner. Or at least sturdy and easily workable lee cloths installed as a start. Hand holds installed where needed. Tankage modified, etc, etc.

I believe that the time and effort is better spent buying a good boat one can afford and modifying her to one's needs than looking for that perfect boat which "needs nothing" which may not be achievable until such a boats drops in price or one wins a lottery. Plus the intimate knowledge of one's boat's capabilities, quirks, etc. which inevitable follows any major or even minor refit is far more valuable than a hundred articles or "expert" opinions or any other general theoretical knowledge.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:36   #44
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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I think it's very similar to the houses built today, 50 yrs ago the standard construction and indeed even the timber was of a higher grade, but houses began to be built to a lower standard.
Why? Because the house that was bigger, but cost less to buy always outsold the better built, but smaller house.
Whats different in boats
?
Exactly what my surveyor had said. In 2010 he placed a replacement value on my than 30 yr old 36footer at about $350-400K. I was floored. He said that's why the company went out of business after 5 years and only 80 boats built. In the early 80s their 36 footers were going for $80-100K when new Catalinas 36 were about $40-45K. And the typical "boat show" buyers expected at least a 45ft+ for $80K+
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:41   #45
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Re: Are there any Affordable Bluewater Boats built in the 90's?

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I think it's very similar to the houses built today, 50 yrs ago the standard construction and indeed even the timber was of a higher grade, but houses began to be built to a lower standard.
Why? Because the house that was bigger, but cost less to buy always outsold the better built, but smaller house.
Whats different in boats?
And at least houses have building codes.
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