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Old 05-10-2014, 15:17   #16
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Buy condition, not year. Boats of any age can be better than new. Only buy a boat that is in better than new condition, regardless of type or age.

I looked at all sorts of old and then newer and then new boats, and decided to design and build custom new. But everyone comes to different decisions, there is no one size fits all. That's perhaps the very best part of cruising!

Consider that every single part on every single boat needs maintenance and then replacement, regardless of age or logo. Hence a boat with "everything you need" but where its all 5 or ten years old may well be a boat that needs everything removed and replaced. Everything has a use-by date, including keel bolts, spars, chainplates, packing glands, cutless bearings, props, tanks, through hulls, switch panels, wires, batteries, battery supports, refrigeration insulation, stanchion bolts, life lines, etc. etc. etc.

Read some blogs of people actually cruising, and you will observe the common theme: cruising is fixing your boat in interesting places.

Hence, my advice: Buy only a boat that is better than new. There are many in such condition, and they don't cost much more than similar models in "OK" condition which means "time to replace everything."

Or just buy or (I think better) build new, and then you know where you stand. At least, as well as things can be known!

Set your budget, then buy the best condition that fits, whatever size that is.
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Old 05-10-2014, 20:04   #17
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

They were still making Cabo Rico's in the 90's and you can still find quite young one's larger than the 38 popping up. I have to ask... why the '90's? Its not much more "modern" than the 80's. I guess the only real difference between 80's boat and 90s boat is the resin. Correct me if I am wrong here.
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Old 05-10-2014, 20:40   #18
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Originally Posted by Tessellate View Post
Even the few bluewater boats I've found built in the early 90's (a 1992 Pacific Seacraft 34) were still using the same designs and style from the 1970s-80s.
Nigel Calder's book, Cruisers Handbook, discusses the pros & cons of interior boat layouts in great detail.

There appears to be good reason for this.

They work at sea.

You need to examine your plans carefully to determine the actual use your boat will get.

An offshore interior layout may be far different than one for coastal cruising and a trip from the PNW to Mexico.

Mexico and beyond may require a far different layout.

Good luck and welcome.
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Old 05-10-2014, 21:26   #19
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Hey fellow cruisers - I need some advice. I've been renting / time-sharing sailboats for about 10 years (much easier on the wallet! At least for the durations I've been doing), but it's getting time to buy a boat for some longer duration voyages.

Since my long-term plans may include offshore / South Pacific sailing, I've been researching all the "bluewater boat lists", reading forums like these, etc.

What I'm still confused on is: are there used bluewater-capable boats in the 32-38' range that aren't old designs (built more than 20 years ago)? Did they not build any such boats in the 90s and 2000's? Or are the owners just not ready to sell them yet? Or perhaps some modern production boats actually are bluewater capable, but traditionalists say they're not because they're holding on to romantic notions of what boats used to be like?

All the ones I find on the market in Seattle and online tend to be 1980's-ish boats. While many are very respectable, well made boats, they also use a lot of wood (teak decks and interiors) and usually have more cramped, awkward interiors. Even the few bluewater boats I've found built in the early 90's (a 1992 Pacific Seacraft 34) were still using the same designs and style from the 1970s-80s.

Of the boats I've sailed - J/35Cs, C&C 27s, J/105s, J/80s, J/24s, Catalina 320, C&C 30, Jeanneau 38, Jeanneau 36, Rhodes 19 - the J/35c impressed us the most, and is therefore my reference point for comparing used boats to - but, most people would say it's not a bluewater capable boat.

The short-term plan is probably a 2-3 month cruise around Vancouver Island and San Juans, but the medium-term plan might be a 1-year trip to Mexico and Hawaii. And in the long-term, I'm hoping the South Pacific and other extended bluewater cruising may come into the picture.

So in the short-term a production cruiser like a J/35c would be fine - but it seems like it would be better to get a boat that I can grow into for the long-term aspirations, since I expect to put a fair amount of time and money into fitting out whatever boat I buy. It'd be rough to perfect one boat only to have to sell and it do that all over again in 2 years.
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Old 05-10-2014, 22:42   #20
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Sorry, I threw "affordable" into the title just to rule out extravagent answers like "buy a custom boat" or "order a new Swan".

Price is not a problem as much as knowing how wide a net I can cast. I can easily find boats in the local Seattle market that are quite comfortable to live on and under 60k, but may not be well built enough for my long-range plans. There are a lot of Catalina's and C&C's. Some C&C's may meet the mark, but no C&C's appear on the "John Neal's Boats to Consider for Offshore Cruising" or AtomVoyages.com "Good Old Boats List".

It seems like I have to rule out 90% of boats on the market simply for being production boats, and then the remaining 10% leaves slim pickings - often very old boats or ones not in good condition.

I could expand the bounds of my search - and consider a delivery from California or further - but there are a *lot* of boats for sale in the Seattle - Oregon - Vancouver region, so I'm hard pressed to think I need to resort to searching abroad yet.

What it comes down to is every boat is a compromise - but I'm not yet sure which aspects are ok for me to compromise on. I know people who have done PNW -> Mexico or Hawaii on boats definitely not on the "bluewater boats" lists. But I'm also not sure are Mexico and Hawaii not really bluewater?

There are several C&C 35s (Landfall and MK III) for 30-40k vs two Pacific Seacraft 34s for 70-80k. The Pac Sea's are twice the price, but they're certainly on the bluewater boats lists. What I'm trying to figure out is why they're valued at twice the price, when C&C Landfalls have also been known to sail offshore (but again, conflicting advice - some people say they're worthy, and others like Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising say to avoid them).

Re: DoubleWhisky's suggestions - thanks! - not to punch holes in your suggestions - specific ideas are exactly what I'm looking for, but...
Hallberg-Rassy - there's only 1 on the market in PNW (AK, BC, ID, OR, WA) under 40', and it's $279k - outside my budget.
Najad - only 1 under 40', none have their prices listed (on yachtworld) and it's a 2014 boat (so not really a used boat, likely expensive).
Malo - 1 45'er for $600k.
Rustler, Nordship, Bowman - couldn't find any.
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Old 06-10-2014, 03:28   #21
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

To the boats in Double Whiskey's list, one might add Via's, Ovni's, and Allures. Also J 130's, and you might look at Van de Stadt 47's, the Samoas, preferably in aluminum, but if you don't want to deal with aluminum issues, then in grp, but it's heavier...

Since we've seen so many extraordinary boats made by shipwrights for themselves, I would include those as a possible group. When competent men with great self respect build boats for themselves to go cruising in, there are many unexpected benefits to the purchaser.

Also, sometimes boats commissioned but built by those fellows abovementioned, can be extremely good, and overlooked because of lack of "name brand".

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Old 06-10-2014, 03:59   #22
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pirate Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

[FONT="Comic Sans you could try finding a Garcia 45... Delivered one a few weeks ago.. a fast 2000 milesMS"][/FONT]
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:13   #23
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Boatie, you're absolutely right, sorry I left out the Garcia's.

Ann
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:27   #24
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pirate Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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Boatie, you're absolutely right, sorry I left out the Garcia's.

Ann
Easily done Ann... I'd never heard of them before that trip..
However they're held in high regard by those who know about these things..
and now me...
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:47   #25
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Seems that this is the typical "bluewater boat" thread where the question is based on some preconceived idea of a style of boat, probably based on a book written in the 80s, and when the person is looking for a boat that is 500% beyond any expected use.

Now that "modern" boats are really 20 years old and have been everywhere; the answer is of course there are "affordable bluewater boats built in the 90s"
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:49   #26
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

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I know people who have done PNW -> Mexico or Hawaii on boats definitely not on the "bluewater boats"
The "blue water lists" are in no way comprehensive. They are more someone's suggestion for a starting point.

The first thing to realize is that blue water 'success" is almost all about you, and very little to do with the boat. Just look at Webb chiles latest boat (a Moore 24 which I imagine is not on any of your lists), or Dave martin's circomnavagation with 2 children boat (a cal 25, also on no list).

The second thing to realize is that all boats going long distances will require work to maintain. Even the best strongest will still require "fixing your boat in exotic ports". Our Shannon, which is on most 'blue water lists", required rebuilding the mast step and cabin sole and centerboard in New Zealand. Part of being a successful blue water sailor is the ability to fix and improve your boat. You just can't get away from it. And it is not very difficult to significantly stiffen/strength fiberglass hulls - you just glue in stringers, easier than a lot of jobs, what Dave did to the Cal.

Find a boat that sails well, with no obvious serious defects (like bad core) or major design flaws (like keels which fall off), with good access to everything (it is hard to fix stuff you cannot access), perhaps with stability numbers that passes the ocean race minimum (except many successful blue water boats do not, the ovni's just for example), with an interior layout you like (but realize you may well not know enough to judge this yet), and perhaps a good ground tackle set-up (although you can fix that), and then keep it as simple as you dare (don't need to fix things you don't have). I would suggest keeping the wood to a minimum but other people like it and consider it worth the work. And then get underway.

Simply put, don't stress too much about the boat. It is more about you and your attitude and skills.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:01   #27
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Take a look at a Brewer 12.8 cutter. It is a little bigger than you want but is a great blue water cruiser (checkout what Practical Sailor says about them). The Brewer 12.8 was a revision of Ted Brewer's Whitby 42, also a great cruising boat. The Brewer's and Whitby's are able sailers with reasonably shallow draft and ample tankage for fuel and water. Enough we're built so you can find one on the market. A couple can easily manage them and we've seen quite a few single handed.

Age is much less important than condition in my opinion. Many Whiby's and Brewer's have been well loved and well maintained and they can be had at a fair price. There is also a very supportive Whitby/Brewer Owner's Association. Good luck with your search.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:07   #28
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

Basically find a boat with a good reputation and that fits your budget... Bingo!
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:28   #29
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

I believe a lot has to do with attitude. Some people spend years or decades looking for that "perfect boat" to take them places until it's to late and they're bogged down with other issues wich keep them boatless. Others just get what they can realistically afford and adjust to the circumstances and go places even if the boat they sail is not their (or anyone's) perfect boat. Or even if the places they go to are only 30 miles from home port. As the saying goes - just get in the boat and sail, everything else will follow.
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:04   #30
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Re: Are there any affordable bluewater boats built in the 90's?

I would not put too much faith in John Neals lists. Its an OK starting point but unless you actually have personal experience with a boat or know someone well who does I would do a lot more homework than look at a list that varies from year to year from someone who earns part of his income from recommending boats to future owners. There are many very capable blue water boats that are not on his list including some of the earlier C&C's like the early 35 for example but that aside you got good advise from Estarzinger. Many boats can be made to do the trip with a little work and it really is about the individual boat whether its on someones list or not, good luck in your search.
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