Are the offshore requirements for a boat set in stone?

[Variant]

I am a weekend sailor in New Zealand and lately I have been watching a lot of Roger Taylor's (mingming) videos. I am aware of the requirements for a boat to travel offshore in New Zealand as they are public but after looking at Ming Ming I noticed he does not have life lines, he does not sail with a life raft, he built most of the boat himself. In New Zealand we have different Categories for sailing, Cat 1 is for offshore sailing. Two of the requirements for Cat 1 are life lines and a life raft so how did he get around this? Is it more relaxed in England or are these Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3 regulations more for insurance purposes? I guess what I am trying to say is will they stamp your passport if you do not meet Cat 1 standards or can they stop you from leaving? There was also a guy who tried to kayak the Tasman in an open kayak. So what is with these regulations?

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is my first post.

[GTom]

In Europe we have the CE categories, where A means ocean/offshore. However it is merely a stability factor.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Variant

I am a weekend sailor in New Zealand and lately I have been watching a lot of Roger Taylor's (mingming) videos. I am aware of the requirements for a boat to travel offshore in New Zealand as they are public but after looking at Ming Ming I noticed he does not have life lines, he does not sail with a life raft, he built most of the boat himself. In New Zealand we have different Categories for sailing, Cat 1 is for offshore sailing. Two of the requirements for Cat 1 are life lines and a life raft so how did he get around this? Is it more relaxed in England or are these Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3 regulations more for insurance purposes? I guess what I am trying to say is will they stamp your passport if you do not meet Cat 1 standards or can they stop you from leaving? There was also a guy who tried to kayak the Tasman in an open kayak. So what is with these regulations?

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is my first post.

In the UK there is a more adult approach to sailing.. regulation is minimal despite the best efforts of the EU.. we have a good organisation in the RYA who helps resist some of the more stupid regulations like every sailboat requiring a liferaft.. imagine a Lazer dinghy with a liferaft strapped on the bow..
If you want a better idea of our freedom check out the requirements for entry into the Jester Challenge..
As for Ming Ming.. the first was a Corribee 21 which he modified for his adventures.. basically making everything controllable from the cockpit/hatchway.. he has since upgraded to an Achilles 24.. a production (?) boat from the 70's which he has also modified for his solo sailing adventures.. as one ages one needs greater comfort..
Regarding the EU's Cat1/2/3 etc.. that's a load of wank regulated by the manufacturers themselves and barely worth the paper they are written on.. if these boats were put through the old UK Lloyds assessment most would fail the much more stringent independent inspections..
But to answer the basis of your question.. the UK treats us like adults not children.

[conachair]

Basically the UK has no regulations regarding your own boat, do what you want. There are a few SOLAS regs which apply and EU regs if you build and sell but for individuals you can do pretty much as you please. Luckily the safety record is very good with a high level of unenforced training and education there's not really any likelihood of this changing.


(Boatie got in there first )

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Variant.

[Suijin]

It's not what's required to be offshore (if you consider that to be past the 12 nm maritime territorial boundary), where you can do whatever you want, it's what's required to get there, lol.

In the US it's just CG safety requirements, such as flares, horn, PFDs, etc. You can pile that in a plastic kiddie pool and paddle around to your heart's content, if you want.

[boatman61]

There are cases where people have eventually been stopped from sailing on.. but that's more to their lack of competence than anything to do with the boat..

American 'Captain Calamity' sailors rescued for a NINTH time | Daily Mail Online

Captain Calamity rescued at sea for 15th time - Telegraph

Captain Calamity is rescued in Atlantic | News | The Times & The Sunday Times

[royalstar]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There are cases where people have eventually been stopped from sailing on.. but that's more to their lack of competence than anything to do with the boat..

American 'Captain Calamity' sailors rescued for a NINTH time | Daily Mail Online

Captain Calamity rescued at sea for 15th time - Telegraph

Captain Calamity is rescued in Atlantic | News | The Times & The Sunday Times

There is another one, most interesting this one is even pilot with Associated British Ports .


Skipper fined after setting sail with iPad for navigation | Daily Mail Online

[TrentePieds]

The incidence of illiteracy is particularly high among "legislators". They are apt to confuse such words as "compliance" and "competence". That confusion is clearly the origin of the "nanny state". I have the impression that NZ is as bad for that as Scowegia.

By all means, be in compliance, but don't imagine that that, alone, will keep you safe. To achieve that you need competence, and that cannot be legislated.

Take two cases in point: Firstly the legislated "anchor light" that is (for vessels less than 12 metres LOA) required to be visible through 360º for a distance of 2 miles according to the "COLREGS". In the mid 19th century when this regulation originated, it was perfectly reasonable and conduced to safety. Today in a crowded anchorage set against a background of "up-scale" residential developments, it won't do you a blind bit of good. But do have it. You need to be in compliance.

Secondly: The "lifelines" that you mention. Won't do you a blind bit of good. They WON'T keep you inboard. As I know to my amusement :-)! What they CAN do is catch you behind the knees and topple you overboard. But do have them. You need to be in compliance.

As for staying safe, that requires unlegislable competence. So stick around. This forum is inhabited by people that will give you all kinds of good, sound guidance in regard to that.

TrentePieds

[seandepagnier]

In NZ, they can make up new rules for each person based on the appearance of your vessel.

I think most people in new zealand register their boat in germany to avoid cat 1 requirements since you can do it completely online without knowing german for 20 euro.

[Matsubob]

Here in Japan, anything with an engine larger than 2hp must be inspected. We have "major inspection" every six years, with a "midterm" inspection in the 4th year. There are stringent requirements, the first being number of people allowed on the boat. They are flexible if you want less, but you can't change it to more. Then you have to show lifejackets for that many people. Up to date flares are required. Also a sound generating piece, such as an air horn. All nav lights must be functional, including masthead for sailing vessels, anchor light, stern light as well as combination.(r/g)
If your boat doesn't carry an engine, you don't need an operator's license, but if it does, there are license categories, with the most common being the one for jet skis and non-offshore, and used to be up to 5 tons, but that may have changed with the latest change in law. (and up to 5 miles from shore). Class 1 covers offshore (beyond the 12 mile international, and up to 25 tons. Anything offshore requires a liferaft, a VHF. If you get stopped by the Maritime Patrol with expired documents of either of the two varieties, stiff fines follow.

[haiqu]

I'm still amazed by the requirement for flares, which are known to be utterly useless in almost every situation except mid ocean to alert an overpassing aircraft that happens to be looking for you already. And the need to have a fire extinguisher on a ferro yacht is equally ludicrous.

We're still supposed to have charts aboard, despite the fact that commercial shipping hasn't used them for years. The world is run by dickheads.

[ccannan]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I think most people in new zealand register their boat in germany to avoid cat 1 requirements since you can do it completely online without knowing german for 20 euro.

What make you think that?

[ccannan]

Originally Posted by Variant

will they stamp your passport if you do not meet Cat 1 standards or can they stop you from leaving? There was also a guy who tried to kayak the Tasman in an open kayak. So what is with these regulations?

I vaguely remember reading that if a vessel departing NZ doesn't meet Cat 1 standards that the authorities may not stamp your passport with an exit stamp. (Hopefully, a CF member who has sailed to and from NZ can offer more authoritative info). Of course, one could always depart without a stamp, and deal with any subsequent consequences later (if ever).

I think NZ's strong regulations for offshore boats reflect their fairly unique geographic location, predominant sea conditions, and finite resources. Whereas, the UK's (population 65 million) area of responsibility for Search and Rescue is limited to the east and south by the continent of Europe, and to the west by Ireland, NZ's (population 5 million) area of responsibility is enormous with very treacherous seas. (The North Atlantic, of course, also has very treacherous seas). Rescue attempts are hyer expensive and dangerous, whereas regulations are relatively inexpensive (to the state) and (in my opinion) offer usually sensible recipes for safety. Compliance doesn't equal competence, but it is a first step. How the regulations are enforced and/or applied are super important nuances. Frequently, regulations have weak, inconsequential, non-existent enforcement mechanisms.

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by Variant

I guess what I am trying to say is will they stamp your passport if you do not meet Cat 1 standards or can they stop you from leaving? There was also a guy who tried to kayak the Tasman in an open kayak. So what is with these regulations?
I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is my first post.

In respect to New Zealand, a NZ registered recreational vessel must meet Cat 1 requirements when clearing Customs. To meet the requirements an approved inspector must have checked the vessel within a few days of departure. And the certificate of compliance is attached to the boat’s papers (effectively the boat’s passport). Customs issue a port of departure certificate, and this must be shown to the Customs Officer at your next port. Not having a departure certificate will get you in a heap of trouble with every Customs Dept worldwide.

The rules for the various Categories are set by Yachting New Zealand, and YNZ base the rules on World Sailing’s rules (previously called International Sailing Federation). Years ago Maritime NZ gave the job of rule setting and inspection to Yachting NZ. And so we are stuck with a bunch of rules related to offshore sail boat racing NOT leisurely cruising.

The rules for Cat 1 don’t just apply to the boat, they also lay down the minimum requirements and qualifications and experience for the skipper and crew. The Cat 1 classification reverts to Cat 2 immediately the boat visits an offshore port.

Also if you prefer cooler climate and want to head south then the vessel must meet Cat 0 requirements. Considerably more expensive and challenging than Cat 1.

I guess too you need to keep in mind that no matter what country your destination, any trip from New Zealand will be at least 1,200 nm across an angry open ocean, from quite a southern start. And those oceans can be rough, there’s nowhere to hide and many people have lost their lives trying. And whilst many yachties expound their resilience and self reliance, most are only too willing to activate an EPIRB and expect others to risk their lives to turn up and save them.

And I would certainly agree that some of the rules are over the top and some of the inspectors quite anal in their approach to enforcement. Hence a significant proportion of NZ citizens are registering their vessels offshore to avoid the Cat 1 requirements. There is no requirement for such a check on a foreign registered vessel even if skippered and crewed b y NZ nationals. Yep makes a mockery.

You also asked about other vessels such as Kayaks. And yes in the Cat regulations there are rules for them too. Although most leave from Oz where the departure rules are somewhat different.