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Old 13-07-2018, 12:37   #1
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Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Hello,

We are within the final stretch of dreaming, armchair preparation (fortified by decent chartering experience) and seriously searching for a boat appropriate for an early (we are in 50ties) retirement and long distance cruising.

We have pretty much defined our preferences to an around 45 foot cruiser with three cabins (either two aft cabins or CC with front and aft saloon with a side top and down cabin). we would like it to be fitted (or w will fit it with) Air conditioning, bow thruster, generator and relatively modern electronics package. It seems that our goal is available within our range of around 200k.

Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
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Old 13-07-2018, 13:12   #2
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I'm going to get flamed for this...

But here is my opinion based on chartering newer (2005+) large Bene's and owning older vessels (a 1976 C&C and now a 1983 Pearson).

The newer Bene's will sail circles around my old boats - pointing higher and sailing faster in light air and even sailing very comfortably in large seas. I love sailing new French production boats.

However, I would not want to own a 35 year old one of those Benes, while I'm quite confident owning a 35 year old Pearson. Care and maintenance of each boat aside, the construction of a 2005 Bene is simply not as robust as the construction of a 1983 Pearson.

In short, I'd rather own a higher quality boat even if that means going for an slightly older design. Of course, older boats can have myriad issues which you must look out for.
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Old 13-07-2018, 13:18   #3
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

what have you sailed that you can compare each of the boats to....it is important to sail before buying. makes the lifestyle less flustrating and more comfortable. for both of you.
thank heavens there was no internet when i learned to sail!!!
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Old 13-07-2018, 13:57   #4
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

We sailed Beneteaus/Jeanneaus/Bavarias between 36 and 50, Tartan 34, Celestial 62, Bruce Roberts. Never tried center cockpit but are really drawn to that idea.
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Old 13-07-2018, 21:10   #5
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...
You will have many recent mass production boats to choose from the cathegory (a), and a very limited selection if any from the cathegory (b). Applying a “well maintained” requirement on (b) further reduces the selection.
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Old 14-07-2018, 04:28   #6
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I think it will be all up to the particular boat.

You are talking boats 8 years old in any case. Any boat at 8 years old may show issues and how bad these are depends mostly ion how the boat was used and how the owner (s) treated the boat.

Our boat is nearly 40 years old now and has just sailed a safe passage from Guadeloupe to Canary Islands. Non-stop. Some half of it bashing into adverse winds. The same hull has sailed round the world before and then twice to the West Indies and back (from Africa/Europe).

Look at the specific hull you are buying, not at some theoretical generic boat that does not actually exist.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 14-07-2018, 06:00   #7
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post
Hello,

We are within the final stretch of dreaming, armchair preparation (fortified by decent chartering experience) and seriously searching for a boat appropriate for an early (we are in 50ties) retirement and long distance cruising.

We have pretty much defined our preferences to an around 45 foot cruiser with three cabins (either two aft cabins or CC with front and aft saloon with a side top and down cabin). we would like it to be fitted (or w will fit it with) Air conditioning, bow thruster, generator and relatively modern electronics package. It seems that our goal is available within our range of around 200k.

Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
You are describing requirements of buying a condo, not a boat.

Also, age is often irrelevant in that an old, well maintained and updated boat is always better than a new(er) one from a negligent owner.

The only definitive problem with the Benetatoy brand you mentioned in terms of sailing is the inherent flat bottom many of this brand share which is fine for speed but not for comfort under sail.
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Old 14-07-2018, 06:11   #8
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Spend a little more, buy an Oyster and don’t look back.
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Old 14-07-2018, 09:01   #9
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Not apples vs. oranges but usually scrap against valuable safe boats
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Old 14-07-2018, 09:20   #10
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

You might want to look at a Stevens 47 or Hylas 47 (same hull, somewhat different deck). These boats have center cockpits, three staterooms, and sail well. They are renowned for their easy motion at sea.

There are a number of well-found, well-equipped versions for sale now that are in your price range.

Yes, I own one. They are great boats.
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Old 14-07-2018, 09:41   #11
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post
Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
Could agree more, having sold the motorboat and the rib, I chartered a rather nice Bavaria 32 to see if the family wanted a yacht. Only a couple of years old it sailed beautifully could be parked on a dime and felt very safe. Smart looking and practical layout below with easy clean surfaces. Then I started to look a little closer behind the cabinets etc. Split back stay was held in place on the inside of the transom with two rough pieces of aluminium about the size of packet of cigarettes and 4 screws through the GRP, not even bolts. Moving on the bulkheads were held in place with some sort of mastic.

We bought a then 19 year old Moody and didn't look back.
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Old 14-07-2018, 09:47   #12
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I think you have high expectations. You have only chartered, not owned a boat, and boat owners usually put in again the amount they bought for in upgrades, maintenance, and mooring. You have also prejudiced your boat search with only sailing newer production boats. Joining a sailing club, yacht club, or just actively finding boat friends and trying out some of the older boats (even as a crew member) would level the playing field and I think you will be surprised. Above all else look behind the glitz of newness and outside the new wider cabins. Learn what is important for sailboats that sail the seas.

It took me five years to find my boat to match my expectations of worldwide capability...and it was 28 years old when I bought it. But she has excellent lines and can go anywhere. There are sailors and then there are party goers and then there are tourists. One has a boat to SAIL the waters of the world...the adventure is getting there, one that never leaves the dock and becomes a party platform, and then those for whom the boat is only a vehicle to take them from place to place...you can tell by their videos and photos...they never talk about the yacht or the voyage per se, just the destinations. To each his own.

By all means look at as many sailing yachts as you can, read everything as well. Take photos and notes on their condition and match them against your desires. Then build a spreadsheet with all the these specifications and compute all the boat's ratios for comparison...APPLES TO APPLES. You will find that while the modern boats are lighter and faster they will also be livelier in the open seas and not achieve as high a comfort rating as the older heavier boats which you may appreciate as your 50ish year old bodies age. The goal is to learn as much as you can to have full faith in the boat you buy because "...if anything is going to happen, it is going to happen out there."

Good Luck.

MJH
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Old 14-07-2018, 10:20   #13
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I would choose an older boat as a lot are more stout, fiberglass cheaper years ago and some builders were not cheap on the construction. Well maintained is a huge factor. Wih your price range you could find somerhing good and have reserve money for updates. There are many out there. I have seen structure cracks in some newer boats that concern me. I have a 1980 pearson that is tough, I dont worry about her, there are many higher end boats in your budget.
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Old 14-07-2018, 10:20   #14
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post
Hello,



We are within the final stretch of dreaming, armchair preparation (fortified by decent chartering experience) and seriously searching for a boat appropriate for an early (we are in 50ties) retirement and long distance cruising.



We have pretty much defined our preferences to an around 45 foot cruiser with three cabins (either two aft cabins or CC with front and aft saloon with a side top and down cabin). we would like it to be fitted (or w will fit it with) Air conditioning, bow thruster, generator and relatively modern electronics package. It seems that our goal is available within our range of around 200k.



Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:



a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..



b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...



Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.



Any thoughts, comments, ideas?


The laws of. Physics generally apply to boats of about 15 yrs plus. The latest lighter boats are faster might save you as much as 2 days in 10 particularly inn light winds I've under 15kn
The older boats are kinder at sea. The moodie in the. Early 50 ft range is the perfect cruiser for a couple. They are still built in AUSTRIA and CHINA but are built using older technology
Centre cockpit is great. Her room down the back is a marriage winner sleep there when your wanted. Five other births when your not
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Old 14-07-2018, 10:35   #15
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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thank heavens there was no internet when i learned to sail!!!
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