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Old 20-07-2018, 12:34   #61
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

On the bright side, lots of cruising boats for sale - most are in a hurry
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Old 20-07-2018, 14:05   #62
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I liked another comment which said, "it looks you are shopping for a condo".

You don't mention sailing performance.

Well, if you are buying a boat because you love sailing than sailing performance should be a criterion.

If you are really just going to live on it and motor everywhere, then live aboard luxuries are the priority.

Regardless, I'd look for a high quality boat, and if newer ones cost too much get a good used one. They are available, well cared for, less than 20 years old (more like 10 years old). A boat which was on the high end of the price scale when it was new. You will spend some money, for sure, with fixing stuff or upgrading, but quality is quality. It doesn't have to be European. There are good US made boats in my opinion, such as Hinkley or Sabre.

Finally, I think you need to find out how much you like sailing. (How about getting on a race crew and do that for a year? You'll learn heaps.

We bought a 6 year old race boat, basically a bare hull inside, and built full (light) interior. It was a project. It became a capable, comfortable, cruiser. It is fast, easy to sail, did I say comfortable?, and we've sailed around the world and over 55,000 miles. We're in our 70's and we still cruise oceans and race locally. We would never be happy with a floating condo which can't sail well. But that's us.

And read carefully the comments about the downside to a CC boat. We concur totally.

I'll say it again, I think that you need to do more sailing and find out what you really like, then find a quality boat that does that well.
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Old 20-07-2018, 14:09   #63
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

The best value and the best all round off shore cruising boat perfectly set up for shorthanded is the Amel fleet. The queen of these is the Super Maramu but older and newer models are of superb quality also
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Old 20-07-2018, 14:26   #64
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by southseasailor2 View Post
The best value and the best all round off shore cruising boat perfectly set up for shorthanded is the Amel fleet. The queen of these is the Super Maramu but older and newer models are of superb quality also
Disagree strongly. While the quality of build has an excellent reputation the interior layout is pretty clumsy and a companionway that isnít centered is a security risk. The brand has a fan following though. To each their own and why not if it makes you happy.
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Old 20-07-2018, 15:02   #65
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Hi Pskudlarski,




We're at the same stage as you and have had the same question. If you have a chance I recommend the Offshore Cruising Seminar from Mahini Expeditions. (Mahina Expeditions - Offshore Cruising and Boating Seminars).


They cover "Boat Selection: Design and Construction Criteria - what makes a boat safe and comfortable for offshore voyaging". They had a list of construction differences you'll find between offshore cruiser and a production boat, things I wasn't aware of.

- Lead keel vs iron

- Glassed in bulkheads vs not
etc.


Unfortunately I'm in the middle of moving and the books are already packed away.


Maybe folks could reply with specific construction details they feel matter, versus saying "better quality" :-)



One thing we hate is the cheap fake wood interiors on newer production boats. We call them IKEA boats. Won't go for that. I managed to knock the saloon table over on a newer Beneteau - pulled it right up from the sole. It was screwed down with the tiniest 1/2" screws you could imagine.



Despite this, we're going for a 8-10 year old production boat for $200k (+50-75K on upgrades). Even at 8-10 years old I expect to service standing rigging, do an engine overhaul, and lots of other work. But I'd rather do that on a 10 year old boat than a 25-30 year old one. And since most of our time won't be on passages the newer boats are better suited to our needs in terms of layout and



We plan to start in the Med / Caribbean and maybe East Coast US. After 3-4 years if we like the lifestyle we can upgrade the boat if we feel it's needed.


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Old 20-07-2018, 15:56   #66
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by Peregrine1983 View Post
I'm going to get flamed for this...

But here is my opinion based on chartering newer (2005+) large Bene's and owning older vessels (a 1976 C&C and now a 1983 Pearson).

The newer Bene's will sail circles around my old boats - pointing higher and sailing faster in light air and even sailing very comfortably in large seas. I love sailing new French production boats.

However, I would not want to own a 35 year old one of those Benes, while I'm quite confident owning a 35 year old Pearson. Care and maintenance of each boat aside, the construction of a 2005 Bene is simply not as robust as the construction of a 1983 Pearson.

In short, I'd rather own a higher quality boat even if that means going for an slightly older design. Of course, older boats can have myriad issues which you must look out for.
Agree 100% with comment by Peregrine1983, except that our "new" (to us) 17 year old Tartan sails as well as any of the three new (really new) Beneteaus we have owned. I loved our three new B's and they were very well engineered - coming of their large factories in big volume as great products for their "price point." However, every hinge, fitting, etc. on our older Tartan is more substantial than on any of the new mass-market boats. And the solid cherry interior of the Tartan compared to the beautiful but thin veneers on the mass market boats is a major upgrade for us.
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Old 20-07-2018, 16:48   #67
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
Yes! Get the boat YOU like and stop worrying and what Internet forums like! At cruising locations ther are all key nds of boats, but they all got there the same way.
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Old 20-07-2018, 19:28   #68
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Donít forget to include the Tayana 48 on your list of prospective globally capable cruisers - Perry design plus amazingly solid execution make it a really great choice
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Old 20-07-2018, 20:40   #69
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

A better approach is to become familiar with design ratios. For example one of the several ratios you should consider is Displacement/Length ratio or DLR:

Ted Brewer, in his book Ted Brewer Explains Sailboat Design, in the first edition (1985), page 9, gives classifications of sailing yacht types based on DLR. These or similar classifications have been stated by other designers over the years, and this is a convenient summary, repeated here:
Boat Type.............................................D LR
Light racing multihull................................40-50
Ultra-light ocean racing boat......................60-100
Very light ocean racing boat.....................100-150
Light ocean racing boat............................150-200
Light cruising auxiliary boat......................200-250
Average cruising auxiliary boat.................250-300
Moderately heavy cruising auxiliary boat....300-350
Heavy cruising auxiliary boat...................350-400+

Become familiar with all the design ratios and apply them to the vessels you are interested in. Few late model production boats are built for ocean passages.
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Old 21-07-2018, 06:13   #70
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

The Oyster would be the safe way to go . If God forbid you get caught on a reef ! You want as much fiberglass between you and coral as possible. A 40 year old Gulfstar would be a great choice also .
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Old 21-07-2018, 14:00   #71
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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When I was doing research prior to finding my boat, I found that there are very few Bene/jenn/Bavar etc coming up for sale that are over 20 yo. Not saying they are not around just that to get them into sell able condition is too much for most to bother with. More boats than you think should be at a negative value.

All boats require maintenance, older boats that hold there value are more seaworthy, would probably justify the maintenance budget better.


The down side of older boats is the upkeep. Thats the penalty of buying older quality boat.


Its a game of snakes and ladders or sliding windows.
To be fair, there weren't really that many Beneteaus large cruising boats built 30 years ago, so naturally there wouldn't be many available on the resale market. There are plenty of Beneteau Firsts from the 80s and 90s kicking around, which was the primary sailboat they made then.
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Old 21-07-2018, 15:55   #72
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Hey there! I'm still in the research stage and haven't bought yet, so take what I say understanding that. My plan is to go cruising for months or years at a time when I retire. I plan on leaving from wherever I buy a boat and sail it to beautiful places that I can visit and enjoy. Enjoying places, to me, doesn't mean "get there and leave as quickly as possible". It means get there, anchor, try to do everything I can think of that I'd like to do there, including "just relax", and then consider planning the next destination.

"Beating to for months" is definitely NOT on my "to do list". Maybe I'll cross an ocean (maybe more than once), but it'll be a trip done with significant planning and absolutely no such plan would include a planned trip in dangerous conditions that would need me to be in a virtual tank of a boat. As such, I see no reason to limit myself to boats built like tanks. Protected anchorages and responsible planning have been keeping boats safe, even "production boats" for as long as there have been boats. I don't see why I couldn't continue that trend.

So, that removed one requirement for boats to be on my list: they don't need to be tanks. Safe and seaworthy is just fine for my needs.

Then there's the consideration of what is most important - comfort at anchor or comfort at sea? Personally, I anticipate that I'll sail regularly, but I still plan for a lot more time at anchor or otherwise tied up than at sea. As such, "relatively comfortable" at sea and "quite comfortable" at anchor would be my preference at this point. To me, for the money, that pushes the balance squarely towards the newer production boats. I can buy a much smaller newer boat and get the same feeling of "spaciousness" that I'd only find in a much larger "classic". That means if I want the space of a newer 45 ft Jeanneau etc, I'm into the 50+ ft if I'm looking at 30-40 year old classics.

Speaking of size differences, that throws another wrench in the attempt to compare boats. A 39 ft Beneteau from 1989 is a practically cramped coffin compared to modern 39 ft production boats. So when comparing boats back that far you can't even use the same size boat as you're looking at today.

For me, I haven't seen any reason that for my intended purposes, classics provide a better value. Sure, if I win the ~$500MM Mega-Millions next week I'd probably skip the Jeanneaus and Beneteaus and move on up to a modern Hallberg Rassy (that would have the creature comforts I'm looking for at anchor with the build quality people love about the classics), but without those kind of funds, I'm probably going to be content to go with a "safe enough" and "built well enough" production boat instead of a "built like a tank" version of those boats for close to 20% of the price.
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Old 21-07-2018, 16:12   #73
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Old 21-07-2018, 17:28   #74
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Lots of Benny's, Bavaria's,Jeanneau's everywhere here in South Pacific that came from far away as Turkey etc. If you're strapped for cash any of these makes offer wonderful living spaces and are very fast.


Crossing the Pacific is called the coconut milk run for a reason...you don't need sea berths,hard dodgers,heavy displacement,storm sails,sea anchors etc. but you will spend a long time at stellar anchorages that are much more enjoyable in an airy,well appointed modern boat.


If you want to return to Mexico or the USA just ship the boat home on a yacht transport ship, or sell it in Australia...why stress out grinding Fiji to Marquesas to Hawaii to USA? Cruising is supposed to be fun.
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Old 23-07-2018, 09:20   #75
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I just got my "Congratulations - You're Old" letter from AARP recently and am heading towards the same goal in the next 10 years. This is a topic that I've been doing mental gymnastics over for several years!
I'm an ex-racer, avid coastal cruiser with a few longer passages/deliveries, so there are others on this forum that know more about design for offshore purposes, but I've been fixing and rebuilding boats for 30+ years because I've always had more skill than budget. I'm an obsessive arm-chair boat shopper, also looking for that perfect boat to get in the future.
The question seems simple, but the responses show how multi-layered the actual purchasing decision is.
My suggestion is (and I'll focus only on what I know) - Buy a boat for less than half your $200k budget.
From sailing, rebuilding and having my hands on every system in all of my boats I've learned a lot about what works/doesn't work for me and my personal preferences.
A boat has inherent design qualities, but it's also the sum of its parts, some being easier to replace than others - Engine make, in-mast furling, tankage etc.
There's also another reason... If you were given a Ferrari when you were 16, how much fun would it be to get another Ferrari when you turned 21?
I have a C&C Landfall 38. some may have good/bad things to say about the Landfall, but I absolutely love this boat because it took me 5 boats to get to it and each step opened new opportunities, taught me things and offered comforts and capabilities I didn't have before.

Get a 38-40 foot boat for under $100k - break it, fix it, upgrade systems, make mistakes, find out what you love about it/what you hate about it and then decide what you really want later.
In the meantime, we'll both struggle to decide if a newer boat is better than a quality classic.
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