Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

[MJH]

daletournier.


I agree that the numbers (ratios) don't tell all the story but the originator of this piece was asking for an "apples to apples" way to compare sailboats and comparing ratios should be the starting gate to whittle the numbers down to a select group that meet his desired sailing goal, long distant cruising. I am concerned about his approach because his list of desirable features have nothing to do with what is important to actually sailing the boat across oceans...they are luxuries that can be added to any boat and won't help when nature turns nasty.


Yes, experience has its place but the originator has only some chartering and none as an owner. This forum and friends is a start but we are all prejudiced, numbers are not. He also needs to READ what the experts have to say for his intended use of this sailing yacht and weigh them as well as they are also prejudiced in their point of view; some believe in simply more speed for the ability to outrun a storm...good luck to you if you don't. If you read about the growth of the sailboat industry you will find periods where undue influence has changed the way sailboats are built. Two such influences are racing and chartering which push manufacturers to produce boats with their desired characteristics (wider beams for bigger cabins, more heads, etc.) but are not usually considered a plus for long distant cruising. Most of those characteristics include more speed with a resultant reduction in weight but there are always trade-offs, i.e. a bigger cockpit results in a smaller cabin and more water when pooped.


The information is out there if prospective buyers do their homework and compare them objectively. Yes, it does take some effort but like everything else, you get out of it whatever you put in to it plus a lot of knowledge about other boats.


~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[pskudlarski]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My problem with old boats is they're old. Remember a boat is more than a hull, many systems and bits.

Excellent point, the big part my original question could could be destilled to asking how much the age should be weighted against other factors in the necessary calculation of tradeoffs.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

Excellent point, the big part my original question could could be destilled to asking how much the age should be weighted against other factors in the necessary calculation of tradeoffs.

I have an old boat, a Bristol 27, I bought it in 2011 because of the price and I wanted to see if I could adjust to "slowboat" sailing after racing beach cats for 15 years.

The answer is yes I can but since the new boats are so expensive and I'm not sailing/cruising full time, it's hard to justify buying a new or newer one

That being said some of the booms on these Good Ole Boats I'm now looking at (like my present boat) are so long you just know it's going to be heavy on weather helm unless it has a gigantic jib up

That's just one small point.

Now I'm looking at another old boat, a Pearson 10M (about 33' LOA, 12,400 #, 29' LWL) and it's boom is 11' as compared to the boom on my Bristol 27 which is 12.2 so the Pearson is definitely more performance oriented, plus fin keel nearly 6' .

My last high tech Beach Cat had a boom I could almost reach from end to end on with a 31' mast, 17' boat. Everything about it was high aspect ratio

[pskudlarski]

Originally Posted by MJH

Joining a sailing club, yacht club, or just actively finding boat friends and trying out some of the older boats (even as a crew member) would level the playing field and I think you will be surprised. Above all else look behind the glitz of newness and outside the new wider cabins. Learn what is important for sailboats that sail the seas.
MJH

Great advice. Unfortunaley for people in our situation it opens another big open question, probably worthy of another thread.

We are both working and not living on the ocean shore. This make it somewhat difficult to gain experience other that chartering that can be scheduled somehow predictibly in advance (not always as our last planned Carribean charter was rudely cancelled by Irma).

In practice this makes for two plans of action: buing the boat while working with limited experience and spending last year or half or working time using vacation and long weekends to get to know her so that we can cast off the moment freedom starts.

Or, quit job while still boatless to start more serious sailing using other opportunities such as chartering, find a crew, commercial sailing expeditions, and only then wiser and older go into the full time boat purchase and refit process.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

Excellent point, the big part my original question could could be destilled to asking how much the age should be weighted against other factors in the necessary calculation of tradeoffs.

Imho alot! For the record I have no problem with most old boats, I can admire a Perry design as much as anyone can.

There are many modern designs that will do what you want safely and comfortably while being in your budget and not have 30 year old age related issues.

I was in your postion two years ago. I just sold my 35 year old boat, i could of bought another bigger older boat or a more modern design, i was willing to fly anywhere in the world to do so. I chose a Catalina 470 after much research

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...g#.W0zRlWiEa2c

I wanted as much boat for my buck as I could get. I wanted what i considered a quality build ie. Lead keel, glassed in bulkheads, solid glass under the water, redundacy regarding steering ,good rigging , performance and comfortable living space amongst other things and wanted to pay less than 200k. This boat met my criteria , 10k nms and one ocean crossing i dont regret my purchase. Fast ,strong, comfortable and not old.

Is my boat the best? definitely not! Is it more than adequate? absolutely. I could have easily purchased another design that was on my list but i bought the one in the best condition at the right price.

Two other modern designs i was interested in were Grand Soliel
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...g#.W0zQJmiEa2c

the Hunter 49 https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...er_5324-1.html

Mention Hunter here and you get torched, yet when i looked into their build they seemed superior to many opposition boats, this dosent nessacaily apply to other Hunters as I know nothing about models that come before or since. Obviously there are more options than the three ive just mentioned. When some offer you their opnion in this area ask them to qualify that opnion.

Do your own research, Cruisers forum is full of opinions its often hard to distinguish between real and not real.

Nothing wrong with buying an old boat if thats your desire BUT there are a number of much more modern designs that will safely take you around the world and sail great while providing comfort.

Ps. The links above were chosen at random.

[MJH]

pskudlarski.

Buying a sailing yacht is NOT like buying a car where millions of a particular model are produced every year and all of a particular make/model are essentially the same except for color and a few extras. Most boats have a production run of less than a thousand and come with few options that owners install...they are all unique to some degree.

I would concentrate on narrowing the list of possible sailing yacht models to meet my intended use (long distant cruising) down to a reasonable number (a few dozen) by comparing their ratios as I wrote earlier, there are thousands of them out there. For starters there are numerous books, magazines, web sites, reviews giving recommendations for offshore use. While continuing to add to this list I would start reading about them (Internet and otherwise), noting their plusses and minuses and the source of that information to go back to if needed. I would also start looking at asking prices for these boats to get some idea of the ballpark I am in; this may cause you to reconsider that make...it did for my selection. In the end cost will reveal the boat you can afford whether new or old BUT it will serve your intended use very well. While the gear/electronics aboard may try to sway your decision I would make my choice based on design because that will never change, gear/electronics can and most likely will over time. As a sailing yacht the hull, rigging, and sails are most important for performance and safety, and should not be neglected or compromised; everything else is secondary.

Lastly, sailing yachts are not an investment, they are a luxury to be enjoyed. Choose wisely.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[nortonscove]

A couple of my friends are presently living aboard and in the tenth year of a trip around the Americas. They have done the horn more than most people I know and both hold certificates of master mariner of tall ships. These were the people I drew upon when deciding to purchase. The advice they gave was to pick creature comforts due to the real nature of cruising. The boat must be a reasonable substitute for a home otherwise many people will simply not stay in the game. His words were something along the lines of not wanting to live in a cave with the false sense of security trying to avoid the storm of the century that a good captain will never see. For this reason he advised against any American boats. May have been his northern European roots showing but he seemed to think his choice of boat was more than adequate.

[lifeofreilly57]

I think that most modern production boats are built to a price point, like price point boats have always been. Some production builders do a better job than others in build quality, which shows more after 20 years of use then in the first ten.
Thats why you see so many more 20 year old production boats for sale from some makes than others.
That said, what we're really talking about here is would you rather buy a higher quality, more expensive make older boat, or a more affordable mid/lower priced market segment newer boat?
I have no nostalgia for old versus new, what I do know is that I can own an older, higher market value boat for less than the price of a newer mid/lower market boat. Of course I can do all the repairs/ upgrades needed to bring that older up market boat up to snuff, which makes the financial side of the equation more attractive. I could never afford to have owned most of the boats I've owned when they were new, or even 8 years old. SO, if your trying to compare an older, better quality boat, which was more expensive than the production boats of it's era to a newer mid market production boat then it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
I do know from having gone through some relatively modern production boats in insurance salvage auctions that I wouldn't want to own one when it was twenty years old. Even within the production boat market, in the same price range, there are significant differences in the build quality, which is not a problem when new, or even ten years old, but beyond that the differences start to manifest into expensive refit issues. Those that were built correctly in the first place tend to stand up better over the long run, even if not kept up perfectly.
Like cars, when manufacturers get into economies of scale corners tend to get cut, a dollar here, a dollar there, pretty soon there's not much left to cut. The exploding Pintos of the 70's were due to a $6.00 bracket/guard, don't think that some production builders don't get into that type of cost cutting.
The issue with older boats are how well they were maintained by their owners, a lightly built, marginal boat will deteriorate quickly when neglected, a stoutly built quality boat will have a little more reserve.
It depends on what you want, in your range you could never afford a new Swan, you could afford a relatively new Bene or Catalina. It depends on what your needs are.
The other issue is resale, few people take this into consideration when in the market, but some day your going to be selling that boat, which do you think will retain a higher resale price 10 years down the line?
Just some things to take into consideration.
By the way, I've owned boats on both sides of this equation, and I can tell you that the higher quality boats I've owned tended to be a better financial decision, if there is such a thing, your never going to get back what you put into it, that's the cost of ownership, and the use you've gotten out of it, but the better quality boats tend to hold their value better over time. I won't even mention some of the cult boats out there, that's a whole nother subject.

[Almost-There]

I used to be a service writer for a large dealership and while it's not always the case. I noticed customers that purchased a new boat every 5 to 10 years rarely kept up with maintenance. We could tell who planned to keep a boat by their maintenance habits.

You'd be amazed but after a few seasons they don't really maintain them like someone planning to keep it would. Out of all the brokerage boats, they generally needed the most attention too.

Now the reason why I mentioned this is because I think the differences between a properly maintained older boat and a newer production boat won't be as drastic as some seem to think. I hate to say it but its not hard to make a ex charter or a ten year old boat that's been run hard and put away wet look like its in A- to A+ condition before sale.

Some other advice is when looking at older boats,ones that are sailing and not sitting will usually be in better shape.

I'd personally be looking at a proven older boat. Regardless of age both will probably need some upgrades and maintenance too. So that is definitely something to keep in mind.

Last but least is if it was me I'd buy the boat now while you're still working and put some shakedown cruises on it. This way you'll learn what works and what doesn't to some degree and make sure the boat is a good fit long before setting off. I can't tell you the amount of times people went full tilt on mods only to have us change things after a week on their new boats.

Anyway I'm far from a expert on sailing but I figured I'd share what I've seen while working in the power boat side of things. Good luck and I'm sure you'll find the perfect boat for your mission.

[Nikki S]

I really think you have to take each boat individually. You could find what you are looking for in a well built newer boat or a well maintained older boat or indeed one between 8 and 20 years old. Perhaps just start looking in your price range and look for the setup/equipment you want then if possible go and have a close up look at the quality of the build and how well it's been maintained. well maintained or replaced big ticket items don't always increase the sale price much, but can save you a lot in maintenance/upgrade costs.
We noticed that in the European production boats we looked at, the quality of the materials seemed better in those build before about 2009 (global financial crisis). It may have just been coincidental...but other people have agreed with us....

[slap]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Now I'm looking at another old boat, a Pearson 10M (about 33' LOA, 12,400 #, 29' LWL) and it's boom is 11' as compared to the boom on my Bristol 27 which is 12.2 so the Pearson is definitely more performance oriented, plus fin keel nearly 6' .

Huh? My boat is 32' long, with a boom of 15.5', and a lower PHRF rating than a Pearson 10M, even with a draft of 4'-9". Heck, my J is 11' .

Short booms are more of an IOR thing, which (thankfully) died out three decades ago.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Nikki S

We noticed that in the European production boats we looked at, the quality of the materials seemed better in those build before about 2009 (global financial crisis). It may have just been coincidental...but other people have agreed with us....

That’s a good point, and is borne out by our experience even though I wasn’t thinking about that at the time. We looked at a number of 2010-2012 boats from production builders and found shocking corrosion on minor trim items. If the trim is that bad I don’t want to know what the structural components are made from. Another consideration is the price of lead, which skyrocketed in 2005/6. Our boat is 2005 and has a full lead keel. Boats a year younger (of the identical model) have cast iron keels. Needless to say, there’s no corrosion on the boat we bought, superficial or otherwise.

You might well be right in being a bit careful about which side of the 2008/9 boundary you’re on.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

That’s a good point, and is borne out by our experience even though I wasn’t thinking about that at the time. We looked at a number of 2010-2012 boats from production builders and found shocking corrosion on minor trim items. If the trim is that bad I don’t want to know what the structural components are made from. Another consideration is the price of lead, which skyrocketed in 2005/6. Our boat is 2005 and has a full lead keel. Boats a year younger (of the identical model) have cast iron keels. Needless to say, there’s no corrosion on the boat we bought, superficial or otherwise.

You might well be right in being a bit careful about which side of the 2008/9 boundary you’re on.

Hi, curiosity, what boat do you have?

Lead was one of my criteria, combined with a decent constructed keel stub. Hard to find now. It was one of the reasons I choose my boat over some others.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by slap

Huh? My boat is 32' long, with a boom of 15.5', and a lower PHRF rating than a Pearson 10M, even with a draft of 4'-9". Heck, my J is 11' .

Short booms are more of an IOR thing, which (thankfully) died out three decades ago.

No, the way I look at it is a long boom is an indication of the old low aspect ratio boats with lots of weather helm that usually don't point well.

The shorter boom usually indicates the newer high aspect ratio sailplan. C&C for example did this a lot but I guess in many people's book those are older boats also

[Island Time O25]

This analogy may be appropriate.

In real esate when looking for long term buy and hold you want the smallest house in the best neighborhood as you can always improve/enlarge it etc. But you couldn't move it out of a bad neighborhood no matter how spacious or spanky newish it is. Similarly with the boat you want the best make you can afford. Not necessary the newest or the largest or most famous but the good bones count in boats as much as location in real estate. Everything else can be upgraded.

Best to look for "sleepers" or good builders who became collateral damage of bad economic downturns or victims of tax law changes etc. Not those who folded because of build/design issues.