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Old 13-01-2016, 21:40   #1
er9
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Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

I just had full survey completed today including the out of water hull survey. there is a crack running around the front of the keel where it attaches to the hull. surveyor said he sees this very often especially on older boats (especially Catalina's) and is not usually much of a concern but on this boat it was a little worse than most others. he did say his experience with the Mariner36 (not surprising since few were built) is limited though and it would be wise to try and find out if its common on other Mariners.

The second area of concern was a even crack on both sides of the skeg. again he did not know specifically how the skeg is constructed and advised further research. his tap test on hull and skeg was positive. he said it sounded solid structurally. the guy at the haul out yard who does all the repair work apparently wasn't phased at all by it at all though. take that fir what its worth but surveyor and yard have very good reputations.

there were some other signs of damage/repair to the hull but nothing that appeared to be a major concern....no signs of structural damage inside around the keel however the keel sump does show signs of regular water intrusion. wether or not thats coming down the mast or up through the keel bolts is unclear for now...

anyone care to weigh in with their opinions? I would appreciate any and all...my offer was accepted but i have not agreed to purchase the boat yet...its pending depending on further investigation....

going to try and attach pics...
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:20   #2
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

where is this boat? punta gorda? I looked at one there with port side water damage at the chainplate..passed on it....is this the one you are looking at?...I would plan on sealing, patching, fairing,... after drying out...those cracks below waterline. I would also check the keel bolts very carefully for water ingress because of the keel crack all the way around..perhaps indicates hard grounding...or....?
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:38   #3
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?


The crack on that skeg looks pretty bad to me. (is it possible the skeg bolts on to the upper part on this boat?)


The horizontal line on the keel is just the joint where the ballast bolts on it looks like. Beware of the keel bolts.

Did you mention a smile in front of the keel? If so, that would be surprising with that long a keel. Another bad sign of a hard grounding or maybe just thin glass layup.





I would get yard quotes to substantially fix all of the above, including dropping and rebedding the keel as well as replacing the bolts. Then revise your offer if you must buy this boat. For a M36.. that ought to make it nearly free.

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Old 14-01-2016, 09:40   #4
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

No san diego. Boat is dulcinea out of virginia. Interesting this one also has port leak at chainplate. When did you look at mariner in punta gorda? Recently? I think I remember seeing on on yachtworld. Did you get look at hull underside?
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:48   #5
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The crack on that skeg looks pretty bad to me. (is it possible the skeg bolts on to the upper part on this boat?)


The horizontal line on the keel is just the joint where the ballast bolts on it looks like. Beware of the keel bolts.

Did you mention a smile in front of the keel? If so, that would be surprising with that long a keel. Another bad sign of a hard grounding or maybe just thin glass layup.





I would get yard quotes to substantially fix all of the above, including dropping and rebedding the keel as well as replacing the bolts. Then revise your offer if you must buy this boat. For a M36.. that ought to make it nearly free.

I did find out it does have a bolt on skeg but there is no info I can find on where its bolted to the hull. Keel has smile as crack runs around front of keel on both sides. There was also a large gel coat patch on one side of upper hull...and a few other areas of damage. surveyor didnt suspect grounding but couldnt really explain some of the damage. Suggested possibly anchor chain might possibly got twisted around hull and did some of damage. Hard to say for sure.

These boats were not known for being poorly built. Heavy thick hulls but I guess doesnt necisarily mean glass isnt thin in that area of keel. It is fairly worn out.
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:11   #6
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

er...I definatley would look at the one in punta gorda.....it is a very nice boat!!!...they were very well built ....if you are going to buy a m36 you need to see this one....I looked at it in the water...didn't see it on the hard...water damage at chainplate could be fixed easily with some time and money...many updated systems....a lot of money put into it in the past 4 years or so...good asking price....it just wasn't the right boat for me...too deep draft....interior too dark and small for me...I need shoal..I bought 4'.......you need to see it if you can...I saw it about 6 months ago...go see it!!! I would give it a solid 8.5....very nice....but I did not see under waterline...
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:27   #7
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

That skeg crack would scare me
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:56   #8
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Great boats. Love 'em.
Neither the keel smile or skeg crack would be a deal killer for me personally. Had both on my M36. Mine was caused by hard grounding which was obvious by deformed lead.

Bolts look good? Got all your threads?
As long as there is not pitting or corrosion on bolts they might just need a torque.

What I did was: Set it down on blocks and torqued the nuts and then faired it in. This is a temporary fix, although it's held for 4years. In two summers the boat is staying out for a season for some repairs, a proper drop keel, re-bed, re-rod job being one.

The skeg is two pieces of solid glass with a threaded rod through the bottom half. One end of the rod is nutted on the shoe at the bottom. The other end is nutted on the stump at the top. The hardware is completely embedded in glass. The crack is likely over a glass repair from removing skeg at some point or the rod inside is compromised or nuts need tightening, hard saying not knowing.

Photo below shows a skeg fiberglass patch (where the embedded hardware is located) and also shows the shoe at the bottom.

You have to dig the fasteners out of the glass to get to them to drop the skeg and rudder.

Not a huge deal to open it up and either tighten nuts on rod or replace rod but it's going to take some hours for sure.

If you do it, replace the cutlas bearing while you have the skeg off to keep from having to dig this out again in the future.

Not sure of terminology but bottom of rudder has pin that spins in a pocket on the shoe. Only a little weight here as the rudder is hung on the upper bearing, the shoe just keeps it straight and etc.

I really enjoy the M36. Great little cruising boat, we've had a pile of week long trips in her. Enough room for my family of 3. She doesn't point real high but will glide along just off the wind. Boat speed is 7.2 and at that speed she's very well balanced.

Feel free to p.m.


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Old 14-01-2016, 20:17   #9
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

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Originally Posted by mariner36bob View Post
Great boats. Love 'em.
Neither the keel smile or skeg crack would be a deal killer for me personally. Had both on my M36. Mine was caused by hard grounding which was obvious by deformed lead.

Bolts look good? Got all your threads?
As long as there is not pitting or corrosion on bolts they might just need a torque.

What I did was: Set it down on blocks and torqued the nuts and then faired it in. This is a temporary fix, although it's held for 4years. In two summers the boat is staying out for a season for some repairs, a proper drop keel, re-bed, re-rod job being one.

The skeg is two pieces of solid glass with a threaded rod through the bottom half. One end of the rod is nutted on the shoe at the bottom. The other end is nutted on the stump at the top. The hardware is completely embedded in glass. The crack is likely over a glass repair from removing skeg at some point or the rod inside is compromised or nuts need tightening, hard saying not knowing.

Photo below shows a skeg fiberglass patch (where the embedded hardware is located) and also shows the shoe at the bottom.

You have to dig the fasteners out of the glass to get to them to drop the skeg and rudder.

Not a huge deal to open it up and either tighten nuts on rod or replace rod but it's going to take some hours for sure.

If you do it, replace the cutlas bearing while you have the skeg off to keep from having to dig this out again in the future.

Not sure of terminology but bottom of rudder has pin that spins in a pocket on the shoe. Only a little weight here as the rudder is hung on the upper bearing, the shoe just keeps it straight and etc.

I really enjoy the M36. Great little cruising boat, we've had a pile of week long trips in her. Enough room for my family of 3. She doesn't point real high but will glide along just off the wind. Boat speed is 7.2 and at that speed she's very well balanced.

Feel free to p.m.


Attachment 116725Attachment 116726
I was hoping someone like you would reply to my post. thank you i really appreciate your detailed analysis and pics. it greatly helps me estimate where i stand. I really love this boat (the one i'm trying to buy and Mariner36's). i'm hoping i can make it work financially. your insight will definately help with my counter offer. such a sweet little boat though.

as for the boat i'm interested in...to answer your question about the keel bolts...let me say that I did notice that the keel sump shows signs of regularly being flooded by standing water to about 2/3 the height of the bilge(there is a salt crystal/water stain). there was a pile of aluminum corrosion crystals an inch thick around the mast base. its so hard to tell though if the water is coming up through keel bolts or down the mast. unfortunately the bilge pump is non-operational and i have no idea for how long. that could have been accumulated water from months and months of sitting untended. seems to me it should have been a lot drier though as it rarely rains here in southern california and it has a dripless shaft.

the keel bolts are corroded/rusting. not surprising as it seems they stay
wet. the bolts are not heavily pitted i would say the corrosion looks like a stiff wire brush would remove most of it. maybe some light pitting.

as Mariners go you know that the floor boards that remove are narrow and only give you a small peak at the stringers and structure beneath. there was no obvious signs of damage. the keel bolts all looked to have about maybe...an inch, maybe 3/4 inch of thread above the bolt itself. there didn't appear to be any obvious damage to them. the bedded area around them looked sound.

the boat recently sat unattended for a couple of weeks with a non-operational bilge (dripless rudder shaft) and only about 1/4" water (maybe a bit more)accumulated in keel sump area. looks to me like its the lowest portion of bilge. it did rain heavily for several days though so that may have come down mast.

with my limited experience with boats i really have no idea how serious a compromised keel/hull seal is. is it just an annoying leak? i guess if its been a very long time issue there are corrosion issues and possibility of breaking a keel bolt or more. this seems the worst case scenario. is a fiberglass repair over the crack sufficient to buy a year or two of time when it may be financially better to drop the keel for full repair? what kind of cost are we taking about to re-bed a keel? i'm gonna guess its $8-$10,000?
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Old 14-01-2016, 20:35   #10
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by er9 View Post
what kind of cost are we taking about to re-bed a keel? i'm gonna guess its $8-$10,000?
That would be daunting given the cost of the entire boat.

Here's what one of our skippers did, shows you what's involved, you figre out the step-by-step items and price 'em out.

Rebedding a Keel Stub 101 The Catlaina Smile with Pictures

Rebedding the keel stub The Catalina Smile w/flix
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Old 14-01-2016, 22:47   #11
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

The following analysis is going to sound fairly cold. But A) You kind of asked for as much, & B) You sound to be in love with the boat.
Both of which can add up to you winding up in a fiscal nightmare, if things aren't handled objectively. BTDT, & it Sucks! So I would have you avoid such woes.


I'm not sure where you are on the keel bolt knowledge curve, so this bears mentioning. And if not for you, then for any newbies who peruse this thread.

While the parts of the bolts which you can see may only look mildly corroded, it's the bits which you can't that are of concern. Specifically, everything from the top of the lead ballast keel, up though the boat's structure, to the parts which you can see.

As these areas of the bolts are in a location which is prime breeding ground for crevice corrosion. In addition to being a great location for stray current corrosion as well. Given that they've been exposed to the surrounding water for quite a while. And the bolts are vulnerable to this, be they made of an alloy of stainless, or something else.

While I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, odds are, that any number of them could be/probably have been, severly compromised. And the only way to tell, is to fully drop the keel, & give them an expert going over.
So, if they need replacing, that's a huge expense, on top of dropping the keel, re-bedding, re-bonding, & then fairing it back into place.... Assuming that is, that that's all of the damage which you find. Which is kind of a Big gamble.

Also, that skeg crack's pretty menacing too. As, assuming that there are fasteners in there, then they too are living in the perfect environment for corrosion. IE; plenty of water, limited oxygen, and...
All for who knows how long.

Plus, even if they don't need replacing, you're looking at a lot of hours of yard time; to pull the rudder & skeg, open everything up to let it dry out, as well as assess the degree of damage & water intrusion. And then figure out the repair sequence, & execute it.
That, & if said fasteners do need replacing, then you're probably looking at fully rebuilding the skeg. Which amounts to, "if you have to ask how much it'd cost..." as the old cliche goes.
Of course, this could also be the case if the fasteners are fine, but it's compromised structurally, in other ways.

Another concern which I would have is regarding the mast having been sitting, submerged in the bilge. If that's the case, what kind of shape is it's lower end in? Ditto on the rest of the rig, given what you're seeing in terms of lack of general maintenance.
As some areas of the spar's base could be corroded enough so that you could poke holes into it with a ball point pen. So it's worth checking.

And if you have any doubts/plan to progress any further with regards to the purchase of this boat, then it's worth having a professional rigging survey done.
Ditto on a Mechanical/Engineering one done also. To include sending out samples of the engine oil, & transmission fluid for analysis. Oil Analysis Testing During Survey

Then there are the things only alluded to, & or not mentioned. Like how much water intrusion is there into the deck's core, as well as the bulkhead for the chainplate in question. And other (possibly expensive) highlights which the surveyor may have noted.

But to borrow the immortal words of Nigel Calder, "if there are questions about structural problems, just walk away". A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World
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Old 14-01-2016, 22:58   #12
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

I can't help but wonder if it is the same chainplate that was leaking when we looked at Dulcinea in early 2014. I'm not sure which is sadder - that such a beautiful boat might have been on the market so long or that it might be turned over so fast.
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Old 15-01-2016, 21:08   #13
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
That would be daunting given the cost of the entire boat.

Here's what one of our skippers did, shows you what's involved, you figre out the step-by-step items and price 'em out.

Rebedding a Keel Stub 101 The Catlaina Smile with Pictures

Rebedding the keel stub The Catalina Smile w/flix
much thanks. i appreciate the link. i wondered how that keel/hull joint looked

it actually seems pretty strait foreward process and it doesn't deter me. i work with a guy who has already done this on his boat and i'm very good at these sorts of things.

the only thing that makes it most difficult and feasible is finding a place to work on the boat out of the water other than a boat yard. i simply cant afford a boat yard. their prices are prohibitive here in southern california. if i can find a place in the factory/industrial area of los angeles to haul out for six months and the seller agrees to my heavily reduced offer then i'm good and would have no problems dropping the keel and skeg.

believe it or not i would actually enjoy it :P

again thank you for the links....clarified several questions iv'e had...
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Old 15-01-2016, 21:28   #14
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
The following analysis is going to sound fairly cold. But A) You kind of asked for as much, & B) You sound to be in love with the boat.
Both of which can add up to you winding up in a fiscal nightmare, if things aren't handled objectively. BTDT, & it Sucks! So I would have you avoid such woes.


I'm not sure where you are on the keel bolt knowledge curve, so this bears mentioning. And if not for you, then for any newbies who peruse this thread.

While the parts of the bolts which you can see may only look mildly corroded, it's the bits which you can't that are of concern. Specifically, everything from the top of the lead ballast keel, up though the boat's structure, to the parts which you can see.

As these areas of the bolts are in a location which is prime breeding ground for crevice corrosion. In addition to being a great location for stray current corrosion as well. Given that they've been exposed to the surrounding water for quite a while. And the bolts are vulnerable to this, be they made of an alloy of stainless, or something else.

While I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, odds are, that any number of them could be/probably have been, severly compromised. And the only way to tell, is to fully drop the keel, & give them an expert going over.
So, if they need replacing, that's a huge expense, on top of dropping the keel, re-bedding, re-bonding, & then fairing it back into place.... Assuming that is, that that's all of the damage which you find. Which is kind of a Big gamble.

Also, that skeg crack's pretty menacing too. As, assuming that there are fasteners in there, then they too are living in the perfect environment for corrosion. IE; plenty of water, limited oxygen, and...
All for who knows how long.

Plus, even if they don't need replacing, you're looking at a lot of hours of yard time; to pull the rudder & skeg, open everything up to let it dry out, as well as assess the degree of damage & water intrusion. And then figure out the repair sequence, & execute it.
That, & if said fasteners do need replacing, then you're probably looking at fully rebuilding the skeg. Which amounts to, "if you have to ask how much it'd cost..." as the old cliche goes.
Of course, this could also be the case if the fasteners are fine, but it's compromised structurally, in other ways.

Another concern which I would have is regarding the mast having been sitting, submerged in the bilge. If that's the case, what kind of shape is it's lower end in? Ditto on the rest of the rig, given what you're seeing in terms of lack of general maintenance.
As some areas of the spar's base could be corroded enough so that you could poke holes into it with a ball point pen. So it's worth checking.

And if you have any doubts/plan to progress any further with regards to the purchase of this boat, then it's worth having a professional rigging survey done.
Ditto on a Mechanical/Engineering one done also. To include sending out samples of the engine oil, & transmission fluid for analysis. Oil Analysis Testing During Survey

Then there are the things only alluded to, & or not mentioned. Like how much water intrusion is there into the deck's core, as well as the bulkhead for the chainplate in question. And other (possibly expensive) highlights which the surveyor may have noted.

But to borrow the immortal words of Nigel Calder, "if there are questions about structural problems, just walk away". A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World
thank you as well. i truly appreciate cold/hard reality checks. thats why i brought this to this forum. i figured the experiences of others here would help me understand exactly what i'm in for and where i stand.

given all the information iv'e gathered so far, balanced with all the replies so far i feel i have a very accurate estimation of where i stand now with this boat, what will be required from me and how much its going to cost.

weighing all these factors i have come up with a realistic approach (i beleive) to how this can work for me, please feel free to correct me if you feel i'm wrong.

The only way this will all work is if the seller agrees to a HEAVILY discounted price (about 1/4 of asking) and if i can manage to find a place to store and work on the boat at a low monthly cost to me (not a boatyard for sure).

if i can manage those two i can do most of the work myself. i'm very good at fiberglass work, am a fabricator by trade and have a full factory of tools and equipment, including CnC machines, lasers, resins and materials at my disposal. on top of that i have a co-worker who rebuilt a '69 columbia from the ground up to offer guidance.

i feel pretty confident in doing the repairs...my only real obstacle now will be if the owner will see things my way. unfortunately sellers of personal propery (including myself) often feel what they are selling is worth way more than it actually is.

you are right i am in love with Mariner36's, not in particular this boat but Mariners first. having said that if the seller isn't willing to meet my terms i have zero problem with walking away from this boat. one thing i have learned in the past year and a half looking for a boat is there is always another around the corner.
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Old 15-01-2016, 21:29   #15
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Re: Anyone with Mariner36 (peter canning design) experience/knowledge of hull?

Quote:
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I can't help but wonder if it is the same chainplate that was leaking when we looked at Dulcinea in early 2014. I'm not sure which is sadder - that such a beautiful boat might have been on the market so long or that it might be turned over so fast.
could you PM me the seller i'm curious if it was the original owner or the charity he left it to?
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