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Old 05-10-2005, 09:40   #1
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Another "which boat" thread

Hi everybody,

I've looked for some info in previous threads but I can't find a straight answer to a very simple question. I'm looking for a strong fiberglass boat, blue water design, to start a circumnavigation in 2008. Though I'm from Europe we'll probably start from FL or TX since boats in the us cost less than in Italy. The american market is quite different from ours with lower prices (both for boats and spare parts to refit) but it's more difficult for me to understand well know models.

What I need is a sturdy, strong fiberglass ketch rigged vessel, around 39/41 with a central cockpit. I've seen many odays and irwins with similar features. Is there any other model you would recomend ? Price should be around 30/40K US$.

Another question (lack of technical english ) : is shoal keel the long keel with internal ballast and no external bulb ?

Thanks for your patience

Martino
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:53   #2
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Given the price range I don't think you can get anything specifically that could make the whole trip.

Boats in the US really are not that cheap. A project boat might still be hard to find in that price range with large refit costs to follow. Refit would likely be double. You'll do better with a shorter sloop rig as far as meeting the budget but still you'll have significant refit expenses.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:23   #3
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Hi PBlais,

it seems to me that boats in the us are cheaper than here...a 25/30 y.o. fb boat 35/36 ft over here would easily cost around 40/45 k € (48/54k$) plus broker fees that I believe being higher 3/5 % plus survey 1,2k$.....but of course I can be wrong.

Back to the main thing, so you would look for a 34 ft sloop rigged boat ? Any model you're thinking about ? Would you recomend a center cockpit on such a small boat ?

My main concern is about safety but I'm also looking for a liveable boat for a couple doing some diving and occasional charter. A 34 footer seems quite small for that.

Thanks for your reply, I'm trying to find out as much as possible and we are very opened to new ideas !!

Thanks again !

martino
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:36   #4
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If you are looking to circumnavigate, be aware that the setting up of the boat with requisite equipment can be a significant sum. If you are considering purchase outside the EU, will you also be keeping the boat and selling her outside EU, or do you intend to bring her within EU - if so there are significant costs involved - not just VAT, but also compliance RCD CE etc all of which must be done before the boat can be sold in EU.

If you are looking for a budget cruiser then the best option is to look for a professionally built ferro boat. These tend to be built for long distance travel, and normally have all the equipment. They are also a lot cheaper to purchase because a lot of people dont like them or trust them, but a professionally built boat should be OK - just use a good surveyor who is used to ferro boats.
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:09   #5
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Hi Talbot & thanks for your reply.

My idea is to keep the boat outside of EU and, in the case, just moor it in Turkey which will be out of EU for another 10 years at least

Circumnavigation equipment will basically be :
- windvane (I think it's called that way....a wind steering rudder I mean)
- SSB
- EPIRB
- Spare parts (a very long list)
- Anchors & good sails
(any basics I forgot ??)

I've often looked at ferro boats but I probably won't be able to buy another boat so I'm scared of old ferro ones. Fiberglass seems to me much easier to sail and to take care of...though I'm sure ferro is stronger and safer if the hull is sound.

tnx !

martino
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Old 06-10-2005, 19:00   #6
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Ferro Cement is not stronger than fiberglass or just about any other boatbuilding medium. A ferro boat is essentially a steel armature with the cement to keep out the water. The steel is subject to degradation by corrosion which reduces it's strength over time. The biggest problem is a ferro's boat lack of impact resistance. The just don't stand up well to point source impact. If they are fractured and don't sink, they are very hard/impossible to repair. I know of at least two Ferro boats that sank or were scrapped after running into buoys. A collision that would only have scuffed up the paint on any other medium.

Guests are wonderful when they stay in hotels. I don't care how big the boat is, none are large enough to handle long term guests. Saw more cruises end prematurely when guests/crew drove the owner's to divorce.

With your upper dollar limit you have a serious problem finding a boat much larger than 35'. There are occasional 'good deals' but they mostly need a lot of work. That usually means lots of additional money.

Not to say deals aren't out there but you have to keep an eye out and be ready to fly to all points, at short notice to check them out. Here is where a good broker comes in handy. A good broker can ask the right questions, get answers and do initial negotiations that will save you a lot of air fare chasing after puffed listiings.

Good luck.

Aloha
Peter O.
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Old 06-10-2005, 20:30   #7
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Challenger 40 15-25000, Columbia 34, 20-30000. Leaves 20000 or so for gear. There's a start. I would not hesitate to sail the Challengers anywhere. The Columbias, I have not owned one, but have a couple of friends with 34's, and they seem solid. 32' Dreadnaught, the fiberglass version of the Tahiti Ketch, 14-30000. All are fiberglass, all are capable, and all are cheap. Challenger still claims to be the only US production boat that has never had a lawsuit against the manufacturer.
THese are older boats, and you will have to add lots of gear. I think your gear list may need some revisions, but, that depends on your needs. If you are in your 20's, you might not miss the comforts, but if you are in your 40's, the list will be allot longer by the time you have done some sailing. These are all aft cockpit boats, but have lots of room inside, as well as very useable deck space.
As for the shoal keel, refering to shallow keel. Some have a full keel, traditional, some have a modified full keel also known as cutaway forefoot. These are a full keel that starts a bit behind the bow. Fin keel is the lightest, and fastest, but the least stable. Swing keel has a fin keel that swings up into a trunk in the middle of the salon when in shallow water. For what you are doing, you want a full keel or modified full keel. THe reaons are too numerous to list here, but the most important being comfort.
THere are some variations on these, but hopefully this will get you in the right direction.
Talbot's suggestion for a ferro boat is not as far fetched as it may sound. Allot of people have circumnavigated in ferro boats, but it would not be my first choice. If you stick with conventional hull designs and materials, you wil find that you problems will be more conventional as well. I would also say that if you are going to be sailing short handed or single handed, smaller is better. You might really consider something closer to 30'. This is of course a very subjective thing, as many people would not do a blue water crossing in anything smaller than 37', yet some, like the Pardeys, consider 29" to be spacious.
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Old 07-10-2005, 12:13   #8
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I'm curious Martin752, why aren't you considering a steel boat? If your looking for strong, steel is strong. As your price range is going to dictate an older boat, I think you can find a good steel boat that fits your requirements.

As for ferro boats, I don't think they are a viable option. Too many problems in my opinion and the resale value is usually not at all good. Insuring a ferro boat can also be very problematic.

Regards,

TJ
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Old 07-10-2005, 22:55   #9
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I cannot immagine any boat of any design that is available in the US for $30- 40K that has a center cockpit, and that is adequately constructed and suitable for offshore work without a major refit and a major investment in time and money perhaps equal to the cost of the boat. Missing from your essential equipment would be Charts, a couple GPS's and/or else a sextant, tables and a chronometer.
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Old 07-10-2005, 23:49   #10
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Allot of good blue water vessels are underated, and therefore low priced due to the fact that they are not good live aboards. A good solid workboat would suit all of your offshore needs, but lack the asthetic appeal of a Hans Christian. The small, organized interior of a good offshore boat would not be very comfortable for a couple living dockside for a few years getting ready to cruise. Especially trying to work and lead a typical life. Most people I know that cruise, live aboard for long periods dockside before taking off, or between cruises. This leads to some very good deals. Certain brand names, granted with well earned reputations, just bring more value, but some of the lesser known boats are well made, and do not have a name to hold their value. Another example is the Aries. This is a small double ender, well built, and a very good blue water vessel. These can be had for 25-35000 well equipped. When I was a teen, I had an Oldsmobile. This thing would do better 0-60 times than the Ferrari Dino, but when I sold it, the money would not pay a months car payment on the Ferrari. It would go allot longer between rebuilds as well.
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:31   #11
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Hi everybody & thanks for your replies. Sorry for being late but site was temporary down & had to work a lot !

Ferro boat is not an option but steel is, though in this case rust is a major issue. I wouldn't like to spend weeks & weeks repainting...

I already have a sextant & charts plus one portable gps. I'm in my 30s already and do not deslike some comforts considering that we would be a couple and this trip is not going to take less than 3 years and some chartering may be necessary.

Kai Nui, I'm trying to find some of the boats you suggested but I was also looking at an Irwin 37 mk V. Costs around 25k but I really don't know if it capable or not.

Thanks all !!!!
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:03   #12
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As a general rule, Irwins are not without a major refit.

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Old 11-10-2005, 09:07   #13
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Tnx Jeff.

A major refit you mean adding stuff for long passages or structural problems/degradation to work on ? Or both ? In the first case, ok I need to calculate the amount to spend on it but in the second case it seems a major problem.

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Old 11-10-2005, 11:35   #14
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While some of this may have been already completed by a previous owner, I am using the term 'major refit' to mean a major overhall of the structure (which was on the light side and pretty slap dash depending on the year and model), upgrading deck hardware and its mountings, and rigging. I also mean reworking the original electrical and pluming systems for the rigors off offshore cruising.

As they came from the factory, these were light duty boats built to a price, essentially the equivellent of the Hunters and Catalinas of that era and a step down from the Beneteau Firsts of that era.

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Old 12-10-2005, 02:38   #15
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ok, thanks jeff. This is very clear now. Plumbing & Electrical should not be a problem, or at least not a major economical problem while the rest is for sure a lot of work.

Thanks again, in italy we say "Buon vento" as a sailing salute. it means "Good wind for you".

Buon Vento!

Martino
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