Another 'what boat should i buy' thread

[TaikoHax]

Apologies, i did try searching but naturally ended up more confused .
I've tried to keep the background succinct

My better half and I are looking to buy a boat suitable for an Atlantic and later a Pacific crossing.

We've only been sailing for a year (a mix of moving from comp crew to dayskipper in F6-8, helping crew, couple of charters and two flotillas thus far) and we're 'hoping' to build up enough experience to do something like the ARC in a couple of years.

We're looking in the 44 - 47 ft range and have a rough budget of £150k-£180k - we're UK based but would happily consider buying a boat in Europe (after a survey) and sailing her back. I'm assuming there will be a chunk of cash on top for bringing it up to spec (and i'm slightly torn between a newer boat which might need theoretically less doing to it, and an older boat which may leave more 'change' to do a more comprehensive refit).

Prior to taking the longer legs we'd be living aboard (hence looking in the above size range), likely on the south coast or wales as we're both contractors (so can work from most places) and doing smaller hops to build up experience (as well as continuing more formal courses).

I _had_ been looking at things like Beneteau 45's or 46s, Hanse 445, Jeanneau 45DS and Dufour GL460s quite happily but as i started to research further i naturally ran into more critical comments about these kind of production boats (especially around their seaworthiness in rougher weather) and started to become more unsure.

In essence i'm looking for a boat that, within reason, i could go most places whilst still being reasonably large, bright inside and forgiving to sail.

Could anyone offer advice or experience on the above boats or indeed within the specs suggest a make that might be suitable?

we wouldn't be looking to purchase for about a year as we're still saving

(hope i've given enough info)

Anthony

[44'cruisingcat]

A lot of people sit behind computers and criticize these (and many other) boats.

A lot of other people get in them and cruise the world.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Think a bit smaller. Spend 100k or so on the boat, & you'll easily eat half of what's left on getting her up to snuff in terms of upkeep. And the other have on new gear/make her cruise worthy. With perhaps a bit left in the bank (cruising kitty).


Here's where your Alice In Wonderland boat buying/selection self-education begins. And be sure to follow all the links, & the links within the links
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-172247.html

[TaikoHax]

Sadly we'd already decided 31ft will be a mite small for us (though i know it's perfectly fine for others) to live on longer term - no doubt easier to sail however.

In terms of aiming lower on budget, that was one of the areas open for debate (as i'd looked at £100-120k Beneteau 46's which looked right up our street and wouldn't hurt the wallet as much) - i figured i'd put the top end figure however as i'm sure that if there's something good but cheaper that someone will point me at it

that being said, I'll hold my newbie hands up, gladly take advice and rabbit-hole down the thread regardless as i'm sure it'll have some useful hints

Ant

Edit : Started reading the thread...oh my.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'm not suggesting that you buy a 31'er, or anything vaguely close in terms of size. If you read the thread, along with the multiplicity of links that I included therein, it amounts to a DIY boatbuying sticky. Including questionaires on how better to define your; needs, goals, wants, skills, realistic budgets... There's info links in there to & by expert folks who professionally pair people with the correct boat to suit them. And I definitely don't mean brokers. Plus tips on how to discern what features you might want in a boat, & the reverse. Etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum.

[TaikoHax]

Yup - i'd only read the title when i first posted.
Hence the edit of 'oh my' - lots of useful stuff there. Sincere thanks for that.

[mr-canada]

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

My better half and I are looking to buy a boat suitable for an Atlantic and later a Pacific crossing.

We've only been sailing for a year (a mix of moving from comp crew to dayskipper in F6-8, helping crew, couple of charters and two flotillas thus far) and we're 'hoping' to build up enough experience to do something like the ARC in a couple of years.

My answer would be:

Dont buy anything at all yet. Buy a smaller boat and get some experience before you even consider spending that kind of money and planning an Atlantic and Pacific crossing.

I have bumped into people on share boats and charters who have absolutely no idea what they are doing, they couldn't even fix the furler when it got stuck and ended up calling Coopers to send out a tech because they were destroying their jib sail while it flapped in the winds at dock.

Part of sailing is mastering the art of improvisation, and that's difficult to do when you're not on your own boat. Another part is getting yourself into really crappy situations and figuring out how to get out of them. Learning this stuff in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic is suicidal.

Buy a coastal cruiser between 25-35 feet, stay within a few hours of safe harbours (anchorages or marinas), and when things get hectic you'll rapidly learn improvisation techniques just to get back to a safe docking spot so you can fix the problem.

Dont go blowing that kind of money on a boat that is going to be more complicated than you could possibly understand, it will be way harder to learn how to deal with electric winches, massive sails, parallel battery banks and battery conditioners, huge draughts on the keel, and all the other systems that go with such a large boat without knowing all the basics like the back of your hand first. People tend to buy a boat, then upsize by about 10 feet, then get larger and larger until they get to something capable of handling blue water a thousand miles from nowhere.

You could end up terrifying yourself so bad you never sail again or causing your boat significant damage.

Start small. Buy your own boat. Sail lots. If you're really keen get into racing (not my thing, personally), those guys know sail trim like no other.

A friend of mine bought a trimaran that was practically a hulk and tried to fix it up figuring trimarans were "unsinkable" and wanted to go to South America in the same situation as you. While he's still alive, thank god (knock on wood) he has taken his family on one hell of a hare brained misadventure, his wife has almost abandoned him and his boat and headed back home more than a few times. Haven't seen any of his bragging posts on Facebook for a long time. Maybe she finally did, or maybe he's stranded.

[TaikoHax]

Hi there,

Sincere thanks for the input but i'm afraid a significantly smaller boat isn't suitable for us - primarily as we're planning on living on board in the UK and continuing contracting in the interim period. The nature of our work financially is that it's easier for us to research and get 'the' boat and spend time modifying it than it is to buy a boat then scale up. It'd be very difficult to do it the other way around for various reasons.

Either way i certainly agree that building up experience is key, part of the reason (apart from internal space) we were looking at that 44-48ft range was because most of our experience thus far has been built up on boats of that range and it sits within our 'comfort zone' - certainly smaller boats have been more forgiving and easier but sadly aren't compatible with the space we need.

That being said we're in no rush for the crossing - timelines will flex according to our confidence which we'll build up in UK, French tidal waters (with maybe some warmer flotillas) over the next few years and we're pragmatic enough about managing risk (of which i appreciate there are many) that we won't just throw ourselves across an ocean without appropriate mitigation (be that time/experience or otherwise).

I should clarify in terms of experience that we've only been skippering for a year and a bit but have sailed on and off for a while - i'm also 'that' kind of brain and i've taken apart old marine (and other) engines and put them back together (working!), have my electrical certs and due to other non marine experiences i'm 'pretty handy' at improvising under pressure - hence we're taking the time to build up our hands on knowledge on the boat we intend to cross on.

That being said, sincere thanks for your input and I completely see where you're coming from - sadly it's less of an option for our circumstances.

But to bring it back to topic - i guess the underlying the question is really the re-occurring :

'are production boats, such as the ones i've listed, inappropriate for those crossings (any specific experiences either way?) especially in heavier weather and are there any other specific boats between that size range and the price range of 0-180k that are worth looking at which are technically more seaworthy*?'

* taking into account that Skipper/Crew are the primary factor

I'm still picking through the other thread that was kindly linked above - just checking if anyone had experience of specific boats too.

[double u]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A lot of people sit behind computers and criticize these (and many other) boats.

A lot of other people get in them and cruise the world.

EXCELLENT!!!

[double u]

mr-canada: "...he has taken his family on one hell of a hare brained misadventure..."

very sound advice!!!

(on the other hand I know a guy very well (often all too well in fact...) who put everything on one card when he was 21, built a 34' Wharram cat in the middle of Europe without ever having sailed on saltwater before - took his lady on this hardly suitable, boat around the world in 7 years, they did 2 more rtws (in a different boat now, after all there was a learning curve...)...what shall I say, he sits here in this office misty-eyed, thinking & planning their final (they're 59 & 61 now) take-off...)
so: caution - too much caution...who knows, one is always cleverer after the fact!
(this is NOT an encouragement to do something foolish!)

[Van Der Beek]

You got it about right in terms of size boat, mid forties is the sweet spot for full time crusing imo, you can still manage the sails, mooring costs are ok, upkeep costs and repairs not astronomical.

As for the critiq raised about the boats you mention they are often times well founded and most often based on experience, sure you can cross oceans in one, but that doens't mean it is suitable, you could cross in a canoe weather permitting.

Most tend to fall short on the very layout itself, for example, a bluewater boat needs two sea berths on each tack, you need to be able to comfortable sleep. Preferably close to the center of the boat, that's where the motion is most comfortable. It will make you less fatigued...

...and right there you can (generally speaking) write off 90% of them, yes you can sleep on the floor, yes you can rigg something, but it's neither comfortable or practical in the long run.

For bluewater sailing my advice would be a to pick a moderate displacement, not too light not too heavy, it's a decent compromise between speed and comfort.

Edit.
Less fatiqued becomes even more crucial when you're a couple intent on crossing oceans, you need proper rest.

I would look into Moody, Westerly Oceanlord (only the English could come up with a name like that haha) and Bowman.

Good luck.

[UNCIVILIZED]

For the kind of budget you're talking about, in my mind it doesn't make much sense not to get a 40'ish catamaran. And a performance oriented one at that. They've loads of room onboard, tend to be more pleasant to sail, & especially to live on. Since the main cabins tend to have a 360 view. Plus when you're anchored, the bigger the cockpit & the more deck space, the better. And on a lot of 40'-45' cats you could convert the forward cabins to his & hers home offices. Which for you would likely be a perk.

Cat, or Mono, don't get hung up on a brand name or make. Look for a boat that was well built, & has been properly looked after. Along with having a fair amount of gear already onboard. Especially since past the 5yr mark, how solid & trouble free a boat is depends on how well she's been cared for. And all of that gear, both stuff like ground tackle, as well as harnesses, & spare parts, cost a lot of coin when new/to replace. But like a boat, when looked after, last a long time.

The cost of fitting out a boat, along with all of the "little things", accessories, etc. can be staggering (as in equal or exceed the cost of the boat if you don't watch your budget).
I cover this in the linked post. But make up a spread sheet of everything you'd like to have on a boat in terms of gear, ditto on her features. And then plug candidate boats into it to see what they're worth/what it'll cost to get them up to your personal standard. This is a much truer reflection of their cost & value.

Also be sure to factor in things like the age of the standing riggng, for example. Since replacing it costs quite a bit. So while a boat with 2yr old rigging may "cost" a bit more than a sistership. If the sistership has 15yr old rigging, then the former vessel is a better value than the latter. I say this, as it's quite easy for the refit of a rig to be well into the 4-5 digit range on a boat that size.

Which, start reading Nigel Calder, specifically his Boat Owner's Mechanical & Electrical Manual. So that you get a better idea of how boats are put together. And this article by him is a classic as well. A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World

[TaikoHax]

I would dearly love a cat but my better half (who's putting slightly over 50% of the money into this) really dislikes the look of them (despite me going on about the practical benefits) - if she could she'd be happy in a classic boat I expect.

I however would prefer something a bit newer, i'd been looking at Bene 45's specifically, so the debate rages on (especially as she'd prefer to buy a boat outright or at least 75% outright which necessitates an older boat and i'm keen to buy a nearly new boat via mortgage).

In terms of ages and refitting (and I appreciate this is a 'how long is a piece of string/depends how it's been sailed or maintained question') is there a certain age at which i should expect more significant refits?

Edit: Just read the 'reality check' article - really good points

Badly worded. I guess I mean should I expect certain big ticket items (such as rigging) to need work after 5 years? 10?

Also is there a 'magic number' in engine hours that I should expect more serious work to be needed? (e.g. if I was buying a used car i'd be more cautious of an engine with 100k miles+ and expect a bit of TLC to be needed)

I appreciate there aren't any 'set' figures but it'll help steer my searching.

Sincere thanks for the inputs and advice thus far!

[Jonathan Hansen]

My wife and I have been cruising the Pacific coast of North America (San Francisco south) and the Pacific Coast of Mexico for the past 8 years.

I have a lot of thoughts that I think would be helpful, starting out with some specifics on our boat which I believe after 8 years of interaction with other cruisers, is pretty close to being the ultimate cruising and live aboard boat.

I don't want to overload readers with what may end up being extensive correspondence, so if interested, please e-mail me directly at: svmollyj@yahoo.com.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

We're looking in the 44 - 47 ft range and have a rough budget of £150k-£180k -...

...
I _had_ been looking at things like Beneteau 45's or 46s, Hanse 445, Jeanneau 45DS and Dufour GL460s quite happily but as i started to research further i naturally ran into more critical comments about these kind of production boats (especially around their seaworthiness in rougher weather) and started to become more unsure.

A lot of the "old salts" don't like the newer production boats. Some complaints are certainly true but you hear a lot of exaggerations. I am not an "old salt" (yet) but all my sailing experience so far has been on production boats, and none of them fell apart on me.

However, your budget is £150k-£180k , which is about 190-230K in US dollars, or about 170-200K Euros. That's not enough to purchase any of those production boats new. Your needs are fairly similar to mine. For two people, the 41-44 foot range might still do you well, and save your budget a bit. To me, the dealbreaker is that I must have two heads on board, and you do start seeing those in the 41-44 range.

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

I would dearly love a cat but my better half (who's putting slightly over 50% of the money into this) really dislikes the look of them (despite me going on about the practical benefits) - if she could she'd be happy in a classic boat I expect.

I agree with your better half! Cats are ugly. However they may be better for long term sailing, because sailing flat is much less fatiguing than sailing on a heel. However, they would not fit with your budget as well as a mono. At least I would try a cat and see how you feel about it. When you are on the boat, you are admiring the wonderful cockpit, great view, comfy trampoline in front, and only those outside the boat can see how ugly it is!