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Old 29-07-2013, 10:10   #61
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames
Who would that be?

I give in... I'll play your guessing game...
Who would that be...

By the way... cute pic on your blog... was expecting something else...

Well, I was wondering who you were referring to, because I didn't see any discussion of, for instance, how the sails should have been set. Personally I wouldn't know anything except to apply basic sail principles to the square sails, and if given a command might not even recognize the vocabulary being used. My point was that at least much of the crew were students just learning all of this themselves.

But it was clear to all that they had a rocky lee shore, and with the engine not working, one less tool to use. The engine could have worked with the tow boat, for instance. I could be wrong of course, but I don't see where the type of rig changes the direction of the wind, or the type of shore they had -- or the predicament they were in at the moment.

I DO think it may have affected how well the student sailors were able to follow directions in an emergency, but that's a guess. I think it's a reasonable one, but it's still a guess.

So, since you are actually the one who set the guessing game, unless someone else has seen someone saying what the crew should have done with the sails, it's up to you to make the big reveal and tell us both who it was who said that and how it is that they didn't know what they were saying. It's pretty easy to miss posts on this board, but I just went back through the thread and didn't see it.

Do we know that the captain didn't try a turn? How many crew members would it take, working skillfully and in cooperation, to turn such a boat through the wind? I have no idea.

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Old 29-07-2013, 10:14   #62
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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One of the wives said they were "experienced." I suspect that they were "experienced" at making the same mistakes over and over (no. 1 clearly being they hadn't checked the weather report; the incoming weather had been a topic of discussion for three days at my sailing club before this incident). What they were experienced at was being lucky.

But if you don't know you've been lucky, you don't learn anything. :/
Every once in a while you get true gems of wisdom here on CF. Thank you Raku. This is a common problem I see with new to the Pacific crew, and certainly a problem with me when I first ventured beyond easy ports and ideal sailing conditions. We are used to pinpoint forecasts, high electronic technology and super relable diesel engines to pull us out of every potential problem. Need to go at night against the tide in a known dangerous area? No problem, our do dads will save the day. Well it doesn't always happen that way, and our luck is about the same as sailors past. Unfortunately, I think our skills are less, and we don't seem to know when we have been lucky.
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Old 29-07-2013, 10:21   #63
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Every once in a while you get true gems of wisdom here on CF. Thank you Raku. This is a common problem I see with new to the Pacific crew, and certainly a problem with me when I first ventured beyond easy ports and ideal sailing conditions. We are used to pinpoint forecasts, high electronic technology and super relable diesel engines to pull us out of every potential problem. Need to go at night against the tide in a known dangerous area? No problem, our do dads will save the day. Well it doesn't always happen that way, and our luck is about the same as sailors past. Unfortunately, I think our skills are less, and we don't seem to know when we have been lucky.

Well, thank you for the kind words -- you are talking about where I am now (and guess I will be for the rest of my life, God willing!) -- time to really stretch myself -- but it will *not* include going into an unknown channel/anchorage/etc. at night depending on electronics and/or engine to save me, even though my engine is essentially brand new.

Stuff happens. I can eliminate one very big risk factor by doing it by daylight. (And yes, critics, I have had reason to think about this, as I have now helped plan three cruises to the Tortugas/Key West, although all three fell through -- part of the planning was when to get to the channels we needed down there.)

We don't always know what we need to know, but by thinking a little, we might be able to make some intelligent guesses about it. The question is, are we going to try to figure out what we don't know, or exaggerate in our minds what we *do* know?
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Old 29-07-2013, 10:51   #64
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

Okay, let's try a hypothetical. Let's say you operate a motorboat with a substantial amount of top-hamper. You basically live from donations at sailing festivals, and are lucky to get paid to take some youths out on an eco-tour of the local coast. You do not have the advantage of knowing ahead of time that there is going to be trouble, and your one engine dies in the same spot as Astrid's.

What do you do differently?
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:14   #65
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Okay, let's try a hypothetical. Let's say you operate a motorboat with a substantial amount of top-hamper. You basically live from donations at sailing festivals, and are lucky to get paid to take some youths out on an eco-tour of the local coast. You do not have the advantage of knowing ahead of time that there is going to be trouble, and your one engine dies in the same spot as Astrid's.

What do you do differently?

Why wouldn't you have a basic weather report, and who would go out on such a boat for an eco-tour? Let's face it, the boat is going to look a mess.

you'd get rescued as these people did, and then you'd face big charges.
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:14   #66
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

Let's shift over to lessons learned which I heard Raku asking for.

Lesson 1 - sketch the lee shores in a red light visible magenta pencil to keep the needed offing front of mind.

Other lessons we can all consider for our own boats?
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:26   #67
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

What he said-

"always have a plan b"
cultivate "an allergy to motoring into lee shore"
guard against "getting a bit...comfortable, and slip into bad habits"
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:27   #68
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Let's shift over to lessons learned which I heard Raku asking for.

Lesson 1 - sketch the lee shores in a red light visible magenta pencil to keep the needed offing front of mind.

Other lessons we can all consider for our own boats?

Actually I don't think that would be necessary. If you sail those waters you're going to know where the rocks near the channel are.

And I don't think it was me that asked for "lessons learned." I'm not one to pick these things apart. The big problem was apparently the fuel, and I don't see how the captain could have anticipated what seems to have happened (I have visions of near-delinquent teens peeing in the fuel port, by the way, for my speculation ...)

Everyone got off the boat alive. I think that was the best possible outcome. I think the captain made the best judgments he could have at the time. I suspect he gave orders, the if followed by a more skilled crew, might have saved the boat as well as the crew, but stuff happens when you're still learning, and his crew was.

I can just see these kids trying to remember which was the "fore upper topsail" and the names of the lines controlling it ... yes, I went to google to find that term. The kids might not have been that far beyond that.

If the crew is still working out the terminology, and one person grabs the starboard sheet of one sail but the other person the port sheet of a different sail -- oops. That's all speculation and guessing on my part, but while I would have no trouble following orders on a Marconi rig, I might really be working on the terminology for that boat.
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Old 29-07-2013, 12:24   #69
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

I think there are a couple of types of knowledge that tend to get us into trouble out there. One is what we don't know. More insidious is what we think we know but don't. A subset of this category are things we have learned by experience but are wrong. Raku pointed out that you can continue doing wrong things and not be burned, just be lucky.
That you can continue doing risky things without consequences reaffirms your belief that things are OK until your luck runs out, then you wonder what happened. This is why I discourage a nub taking a new to him boat over the Columbia bank and up the lee coast. It may not burn him at first but it is a big risk. He doesn't know how lucky he is to get great weather and have nothing break.
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Old 29-07-2013, 16:13   #70
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Bit of a joke when folk who have not a clue how to run/sail a square rigger suddenly become experts...

I'm still waiting to hear who has never sailed a square rigger but claims to be an expert. You're the one who brought up the "joke," so you must know who the joker is.
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Old 29-07-2013, 16:46   #71
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pirate Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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I'm still waiting to hear who has never sailed a square rigger but claims to be an expert. You're the one who brought up the "joke," so you must know who the joker is.
95% of the posters here I would imagine... another thing not being taken into consideration is the tide which was likely on the ebb.
This has an dramatic effect on a ships performance if the engine dies suddenly... having sailed Cork I have a small idea of how it can run... I don't care how good you are your not going to turn a boat that size when its bleeding of speed in a wind over tide situation...
Its not a bludi fin keel 30ftr with a freshly painted bum.
I refer to the knockers who play at sailing... somewhat like yourself... there are some professional sailors on here of a vintage to maybe have crewed on these square riggers back in the 50's/60's... and maybe a couple who've crewed em in the Tall Ships events out of Plymouth/Lisbon etc... Portugal owns a 4 masted beauty...
Commanding a Tall Ship is stepping back in time.. as has been stated earlier.. back then you hove to for days/weeks at a time waiting for a favourable entrance... engines have stopped this PITA tactic... so now Tall Ships can come and go at will... but even engines can fail...
And yes... I have been up a square riggers mast and stood on the yardarms....
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Old 29-07-2013, 16:56   #72
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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95% of the posters here I would imagine... another thing not being taken into consideration is the tide which was likely on the ebb.
This has an dramatic effect on a ships performance if the engine dies suddenly... having sailed Cork I have a small idea of how it can run... I don't care how good you are your not going to turn a boat that size when its bleeding of speed in a wind over tide situation...
Its not a bludi fin keel 30ftr with a freshly painted bum.
I refer to the knockers who play at sailing... somewhat like yourself... there are some professional sailors on here of a vintage to maybe have crewed on these square riggers back in the 50's/60's... and maybe a couple who've crewed em in the Tall Ships events out of Plymouth/Lisbon etc... Portugal owns a 4 masted beauty...
Commanding a Tall Ship is stepping back in time.. as has been stated earlier.. back then you hove to for days/weeks at a time waiting for a favourable entrance... engines have stopped this PITA tactic... so now Tall Ships can come and go at will... but even engines can fail...
And yes... I have been up a square riggers mast and stood on the yardarms....

Really? I'm a knocker who pretended to be an expert on sailing square rigged boats?

Well, no, I didn't. And 95% of us are like that? Sir, we are honored to be in your presence!
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Old 29-07-2013, 17:02   #73
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[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1296856]Really? I'm a knocker who pretended to be an expert on sailing square rigged boats?

Well, no, I didn't. And 95% of us are like that?
Sir, we are honored to be in your presence![/QUOTE]

About time you clued up.....
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Old 29-07-2013, 17:16   #74
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

[QUOTE=boatman61;1296865]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Really? I'm a knocker who pretended to be an expert on sailing square rigged boats?

Well, no, I didn't. And 95% of us are like that?
Sir, we are honored to be in your presence![/QUOTE]

About time you clued up.....

ROTFL!


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Old 29-07-2013, 18:17   #75
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Re: Another Lovely Old Girl Founders

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Okay, let's try a hypothetical. Let's say you operate a motorboat with a substantial amount of top-hamper. You basically live from donations at sailing festivals, and are lucky to get paid to take some youths out on an eco-tour of the local coast. You do not have the advantage of knowing ahead of time that there is going to be trouble, and your one engine dies in the same spot as Astrid's.

What do you do differently?
This was an attempt to factor out the sail aspects of Astrid's demise. The fore-and-afts weren't pulling, and I have yet to hear a credible comment on raising the squares.

But comment however you like.

(Rakuflames, the yardarm is the outermost portion of the yard, outboard of the lifts. Probably the only way you could stand there would be with the square above set, so you'd have something to hold onto. The "real sailors" of yesterday would sometimes climb down the leech from the yard above, but I don't think they did it for fun!)
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