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Old 10-09-2013, 10:36   #31
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Been to Foss Foam's mfg site and had all the processes explained to me. Foss Foam makes the rudders Hunter wants. They don't come up with the design. They fulfill it.

At the end of the discussion, the Hunter was aground and the rudder broke while being pulled off. For me, that's SIX hunter rudders I've heard of. There are an awful lot of Catalinas around here, and Ihaven't heard of it happening once to a Catalina (doesn't mean it doesn't happen; just saying that I know way more Catalina owners than Hunter owners and have never heard of it on a Catalina.

All skeg rudders are exposed, no doubt about it, but I think there's more than that in play here.

I think it would take a naval architect to figure out why Hunters are especially vulnerable, but from what I see around me, they are.

I didn't set a record for buying rudders from Foss Foam. The record belongs to a boat owner who bought THREE for the same boat in one year.
I'm only in second place.
Rudders are designed to direct the flow of water, not dirt. On a fin keel yacht, unless one's rudder is substantially more shallow than one's keel, one needs be extracted from a grounding from the reverse of the direction the yacht was traveling at the time it grounded; i.e. be hauled directly astern and especially so where the water shoals rapidly as do the shallows on the Manatee River, and particularly, Snead Island Reef. In such cases, rotating the yacht about it's keel can force the stern into significantly more shallow water than it is in when the yacht first grounds with the consequent effect of damaging the rudder.

In many cases, we have seen folks call for aid from SeaTow or Tow BoatUS and then defer to the judgement of the tow boat operator when he/she arrives rather than advising them how the yacht has to be extracted. The tow boat operator wants to get a boat off as quickly as possible and is less concerned with the nuances of how that is done and the damage that may be done to a yacht by sumply passing a line through a boat roller and draging the thing around and into deeper water.

When we were first moored on the Manatee River, we became quite well acquainted with the limits of Snead Island Reef and the tell-tale changes in the water's surface above it. With a grounding there, at the stern the rudder would be clear of the bottom while at the bow--at that time 30' away--one would be standing in less than waist deep water. Rotating the boat would have destroyed the rudder verses just pushing her backward, in the direction from which we had come with no adverse effect.

The problem with Hunter's rudders isn't the rudders, which closely match the depth of the keels, it's the user/operator's.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:31   #32
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

"The problem with Hunter's rudders isn't the rudders, which closely match the depth of the keels, it's the user/operator's."

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Old 10-09-2013, 12:06   #33
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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Heck any spade rudder in rocks is at risk of break off no matter if is a hunter or a swan.... more prone this silly designs with the rudder deeper than the keel...
Exactly. My rudder is at risk under the right circumstances but is not deeper than the keel.

Could it be the sheer number of Hunters out there or the type of sailors they attract?

I have no issues with Hunters but do see the 90s forward as coastal cruisers which was their intended use mostly around the Great Lakes and Chesapeake.

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Old 10-09-2013, 12:09   #34
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
shorter the rudder more the weather helm problems... coronado had short rudders, and much weather helm.
catalina 30 s were initially considered catalina cruisers--weekends or weeks at a time at catalina island, made in costa mesa, kali for the purpose of sailing these waters. they can, according to folks actually cruising them, be used to cruise coastal waters of west coast and to hawaii.
but, then, some folks actually sail macgregors in the san pedro and santa barbara channels between catalina and mainland kali. some even sail hunter 26s.....

our problem here isnt short or skinny water--it is rocky lee shore and winds of probably inadequate amounts, but with goodly gusts.

I'm not knocking Catalinas, but I know that those 83 - 85 Hunters are faster. I am SPECULATING that maybe the Catalina rudders are shorter in proportion to their keels than Hunters, because I know of six Hunter rudder problems, but none for Catalina.

They both had the same awful roller furlers on them -- Hood 810's.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:40   #35
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

How many Hunters loose their rudder in deep waters, and how many by groundings or collisions?
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:52   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
How many Hunters loose their rudder in deep waters, and how many by groundings or collisions?
I spoke to the owners of a 450 that lost there rudder (stock broke off) in deep water between Puerto Rico and St Thomas. There were good enough sailors to balance the boat with the sails and continue towards St Thomas before being towed into a marina for haulout. At the same time, in the same yard there were 3 other Hunters with broken rudder shafts. Most I believe were fiberglass, not stainless. I know one of the Hunters had a bad grounding resulting in substantial damage to the wing keel and holed the hull. I can't find fault with that rudder failure. I don't recall the circumstances of the other failures. Slightly off subject. I did assist a Hunter that hit a rock under power that caused the keel to completely fall off. All keel bolts sheared off cleanly. There was no water ingress thankfully.
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Old 10-09-2013, 13:23   #37
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Maybe the rudders are too strong, which means the shafts take a higher stress. All depends how you what to spin it isn't it?

Aren't we talking about an mid 80s boat here? Who knows want has happened to that boat over the years.

1 yard with 3 Hunters with rudders broken sounds like a story. I have never seen or personally met anyone with a broken rudder. I have never seen anyone at the 2 marinas I use in/off season remove of replace their rudder.

Rudders like keels don't just break and fall off, they get help. The help may have been a year prior.
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Old 10-09-2013, 14:14   #38
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

http://selfsteer.com/products/sos/
Raku, mabe get one of these for back up.

My friends, Elise and Don aboard Toca Cielo, sailed their spade rudder Pearson 26 from Texas through Panama on up to Costa Rica. They lost their rudder in a rather calm Gulf of Mexico. Luckily, before they left they made their head door act as a crude back up rudder, mounting pintle and gedgeons where appropriate. Turned out they needed it, though it was a real bear to work with.

If anyone doubts that there might be something up with the hunter's rudders, just google hunter rudder failure. Raku is not making this up, they do seem to have more issues than other production boats. Having said that I feel I must say,( for you Don) hunter are fantastic sailors, every boat has weaknesses, address them and go have fun.
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Old 10-09-2013, 14:32   #39
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Well for those with a broken rudder, why not Cf!!


Posted by Rubikoop.

I did assist a Hunter that hit a rock under power that caused the keel to completely fall off. All keel bolts sheared off cleanly. There was no water ingress thankfully.

Hard to believe mate... seriously...
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Old 10-09-2013, 14:32   #40
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Rudders are designed to direct the flow of water, not dirt. On a fin keel yacht, unless one's rudder is substantially more shallow than one's keel, one needs be extracted from a grounding from the reverse of the direction the yacht was traveling at the time it grounded; i.e. be hauled directly astern and especially so where the water shoals rapidly as do the shallows on the Manatee River, and particularly, Snead Island Reef. In such cases, rotating the yacht about it's keel can force the stern into significantly more shallow water than it is in when the yacht first grounds with the consequent effect of damaging the rudder.

In many cases, we have seen folks call for aid from SeaTow or Tow BoatUS and then defer to the judgement of the tow boat operator when he/she arrives rather than advising them how the yacht has to be extracted. The tow boat operator wants to get a boat off as quickly as possible and is less concerned with the nuances of how that is done and the damage that may be done to a yacht by sumply passing a line through a boat roller and draging the thing around and into deeper water.

When we were first moored on the Manatee River, we became quite well acquainted with the limits of Snead Island Reef and the tell-tale changes in the water's surface above it. With a grounding there, at the stern the rudder would be clear of the bottom while at the bow--at that time 30' away--one would be standing in less than waist deep water. Rotating the boat would have destroyed the rudder verses just pushing her backward, in the direction from which we had come with no adverse effect.

The problem with Hunter's rudders isn't the rudders, which closely match the depth of the keels, it's the user/operator's.
So that there is no confusion, please note that the foregoing comments were intended to speak only to the loss of a rudder as a consequence of a grounding and not as a blanket exoneration of Hunter in the failures of its big-boat rudders at sea, e.g. on the 450's and 466's. Those failures, reported not infrequently between 2000 and 2009, were evidently a consequence of poor workmanship in the lay-up of composit rudder stocks by Hunter's subcontractors, whom- or whichever they may be/have been. Hunter's unwillingness to accept responsibility for the problems, and costs suffered by its customers for repairs and corrective measures, was really was quite shameful; and, undoubtedly diminished the value of the brand and many people's investments in the yachts.

FWIW...
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Old 10-09-2013, 14:58   #41
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

speed doth not a good sailing boat make--there is a lot to be considered besides speed. my ericson leaves every boat of its size and appearance in the dirt. she is a fast boat---BUT she is also well designed and well constructed. isnt the speed at which the sailboat moves that makes it a good boat--my formosa is slower than cleopatra's barge---but it is also a solid and heavy hull with a barn door rudder on a bronze post with a lovely bronze packing gland on top. beautiful. i know for a fact that i can pick up a piece of net around my prop with long line hooks and not have a problem--btdt, out side la cruz de huanacaxtle, 2012, early, when i first got there. i also know i can bang off a rock more than one time while at anchor and not leak. i am aware that this boat could possibly lie over on a breakwall fro a week, as it did that before i bought her--no complications at all.
for a cruising boat, it is wise to have a skegged rudder for safety or a lovely barn door. it is also a good idea to have a nice emergency over the transom rudder that actually gets into the water to use should your intrinsic rudder fail.

spade rudders are not protected therefore not desirable, to me and for my uses.. some folks like em--- i wont cruise with one again--btdt.....broke it....but they are great for the boats they were designed for--day sailors and weekenders and coastal cruisers, which is where my ericson fits.

there are very few boats that can be dragged off a shoal the wrong way---go out the way you came in---exactly. and in reverse of how you got there.

we used to let the boom on uncle phils boat waaay out to tip it so we could shorten the draft and leave the shoal under sail power---but we were heeled over and shallower than on entry. btw--a really GOOD sailor can back his engineless boat off a shoal. without lines or kedging with an anchor
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Old 10-09-2013, 15:04   #42
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
How many Hunters loose their rudder in deep waters, and how many by groundings or collisions?

I've never heard of losing one in a collision. A lot of hunters aren't bluewater boats, but Helsen's is, and he did lose his rudder in somewhat deep water (the Gulf as a whole is pretty shallow compared with most of the Atlantic and Pacific). That's part of the problem in the Gulf. Waves get diproportionally big.

So of the incident, one was in ddep enough water that grounding wasan't part of the equation.

That still doesn't answer any questions for me, though, because where I live, "If you never run aground, either you never leave the dock or you're a liar." There are lots more Catalinas grounding here just because there are lots more Catalinas.

Once again, I'm NOT blaming Hunter. It's just curious that Hunters seem to be more vulnerable. Every boat has its strengths and weaknesses and lots of boats have an Achilles heel.
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Old 10-09-2013, 15:07   #43
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
I spoke to the owners of a 450 that lost there rudder (stock broke off) in deep water between Puerto Rico and St Thomas. There were good enough sailors to balance the boat with the sails and continue towards St Thomas before being towed into a marina for haulout. At the same time, in the same yard there were 3 other Hunters with broken rudder shafts. Most I believe were fiberglass, not stainless. I know one of the Hunters had a bad grounding resulting in substantial damage to the wing keel and holed the hull. I can't find fault with that rudder failure. I don't recall the circumstances of the other failures. Slightly off subject. I did assist a Hunter that hit a rock under power that caused the keel to completely fall off. All keel bolts sheared off cleanly. There was no water ingress thankfully.

That's the kind of thing I'm wondering about. I don't know what happened in Helsen's case, but in the other five I know of, it was the stainless steel shaft that failed, not the fiberglass blade. In my case, even after a really hard blow, there was no extra moisture in the blade -- not anywhere.
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Old 10-09-2013, 15:15   #44
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Maybe the rudders are too strong, which means the shafts take a higher stress. All depends how you what to spin it isn't it?

Aren't we talking about an mid 80s boat here? Who knows want has happened to that boat over the years.

1 yard with 3 Hunters with rudders broken sounds like a story. I have never seen or personally met anyone with a broken rudder. I have never seen anyone at the 2 marinas I use in/off season remove of replace their rudder.

Rudders like keels don't just break and fall off, they get help. The help may have been a year prior.

Thank you. I'm thinking this is weird, too. Of couse, I don't know what happened to my first rudder that caused the shaft to fail. I know that one person's rudder did have a welded shaft, and that the weld failed. And yes, they need help of some kind, but in my first case, the help, apparently, was rust. And, it rusted from the inside out. I don't know enough about metallurgy to know how that happened.

What do you mean, 'sounds like a story/' as in a lie? Why would I say that I've had to rudders go on me? Would that make me look like a stellar sailor or something? And it's FOUR just in my little sailing club, all Hunters ... mine twice, another boat just like mine once, and another boat very similar to mine (34' instead of 31'). There' no *made up* story here.
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Old 10-09-2013, 15:17   #45
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
http://selfsteer.com/products/sos/
Raku, mabe get one of these for back up.

My friends, Elise and Don aboard Toca Cielo, sailed their spade rudder Pearson 26 from Texas through Panama on up to Costa Rica. They lost their rudder in a rather calm Gulf of Mexico. Luckily, before they left they made their head door act as a crude back up rudder, mounting pintle and gedgeons where appropriate. Turned out they needed it, though it was a real bear to work with.

If anyone doubts that there might be something up with the hunter's rudders, just google hunter rudder failure. Raku is not making this up, they do seem to have more issues than other production boats. Having said that I feel I must say,( for you Don) hunter are fantastic sailors, every boat has weaknesses, address them and go have fun.

Ocean Girl, if I were going to bluewater this boat you can bet I would have a backup plan. The numbers are just too high to ignore IMO.
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