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Old 08-02-2014, 08:04   #166
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

I'm looking at Hunter's and will probably buy one. I am fully aware they are production boats and built to a price point.
I'm looking for my first sailboat, I think probably more Hunter owners maybe than any other brand are first sailboat owners, and therefore are a lot more likely to do stupid things with and to the boat, and are more likely to neglect and not maintain them.
If someone was stupid enough they could tear up an Oyster or an HR, but costing what they do, that filters most first owners out, but if you look especially for a "comfortable boat the wife likes" and money is an object as in this economy it is more than ever, a Hunter comes out looking pretty good.
I fully realize the limitations of the boat and for me it's a boat to have for five years and learn to sail. It's to be a day sailing / weekend coastal cruising boat. and it will be in it's slip if the weather is bad.
A Hunter is the Chevrolet of boats, and there is nothing wrong with that, it's no Porsche and in many ways there are advantages to that
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:09   #167
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Point is a Hunter is built with smaller structural margins than some, with a finite life expectancy, and to cap it off is far less likely to be well maintained, and more likely to be abused.
Add all these things up, and it's surprising any of them have rudders that haven't fallen off.
My belief is an intelligent person can sail one within it's limitations, properly maintain one and perform preventative maintenance and mitigate almost all of their shortcomings.
But the average Hunter is not maintained, often abused, and no preventative maintenance is ever done, most seem to be owned by absentee owners who keep the boat in S Fl., but they live up north, and see the boat a few months of the year in winter.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:13   #168
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
That is not the boat's fault, or the rig's fault. Neither is losing rudders by running aground.

In either case there is only one thing to blame. And it ain't Hunter. That's what makes threads like this so wildly hilarious.

All I was gettin at was that the combination of spade rudder and narrow boom angle make a boat prone to accidental gybe in steep seas. I take it you dont agree?

I fell in love with sailing while chartering Hunters. Never forget my first sailing experience on Saturdays child. a mid 30s Hunter. There was no autopilot or gps, Steering was solely by hand. Went from miami to bimini to Port Lucaya and back. My brothers and I did the annual charters on hunters for a decade till i bought my own boat. On those trips I sailed a pretty large variety of Hunters offerings. Googling Saturdays child I found a reference to it and it was a 35.5 Legend.

I dont worry about losing my rudder when running aground. My Morgan is forgiving that way and thats why I bought it. Thats after losing two rudders running aground in my first boat. If your telling me youve never run aground,that tells me a lot. You must have a deep slip.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:49   #169
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Point is a Hunter is built with smaller structural margins than some, with a finite life expectancy, and to cap it off is far less likely to be well maintained, and more likely to be abused.
.

In the end there is only 1:
1 boat strongest
1 boat with the longest life
1 boat maintained the best and less abused

What you are suggesting is that Hunter is building boat with marginal strength etc. and what is your prove of this other that it is the herd word of internet forums?
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:59   #170
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
By sheer (no pun) numbers it kinda sorta seems like there is a connection between Hunter and the blame you referred to. What's so "wildly hilarious" bout dat?
LOL! Somebody runs their Hunter aground and busts the rudder off. They get on the internet forum and it goes on for 11 or 12 pages. Including claims that Hunters are only built for coastal cruising or Great Lakes (oh yeah, I read that in this thread too).

I just got done tearing our Legend 37 down to pretty much the bare hull and refitting her. After going over every square mm of that boat I guarantee you there is nothing "cheap built" about a Hunter. In fact they are more stout than most other boats I have worked on or looked at in critical areas like chainplates, keel, and mast step. They could've paid a bit more attention to fit and finish when they drop the inner hull into the outer and leave some areas like hanging lockers with raw glass walls instead of being lined. But chincey in stoutness of design and build? Anything but. You oughta see the keel stub in a Legend. If I'm going to run a boat aground I'd rather do it with a Hunter than most others.

What I'm reading here is a bunch of folks who are sitting around in front of computers and typing about sailing. And not enough folks actually doing it, or with enough experience to back up their claims. Makes for some good entertainment. But the entertainment value is about all that's valid. Just sayin'
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:00   #171
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
In the end there is only 1:
1 boat strongest
1 boat with the longest life
1 boat maintained the best and less abused

What you are suggesting is that Hunter is building boat with marginal strength etc. and what is your prove of this other that it is the herd word of internet forums?

Look at the weight vs size of some of the more heavily built boats. Some boats are built more for heavy weather than others, they give up speed and a few other things to obtain that, Hunters seem to be built for good performance in light winds.
At least as a noob, that is what it appears to be form me looking at several boats. At this stage in my life, I'm not after a boat to round Cape Horn, nor sail the upper lattitudes.
Now I readily admit I know next to nothing about sailing, but I've been several different types of mechanic over my life and make my living being concerned about structure among other things.
You'd be surprised at how sailboat design seems to follow aircraft design.
There is nothing wrong with a light weight boat that sails nicely in light winds, matter of fact, that is what I'm looking for, later when my skill set is up to crossing oceans, I'll likely be looking for a different boat that is more heavily built
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:29   #172
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
All I was gettin at was that the combination of spade rudder and narrow boom angle make a boat prone to accidental gybe in steep seas. I take it you dont agree?
Well, I don't. The gybe is not an inherently safe maneuver in the first place. And even moreso when you're sailing something with a main as big as a B&R carries. A good sailor will have a preventer rigged. The B&R is designed for sailing on a reach. And close to beam reach they got serious legs. That big main and roach develops tremendous power. With the big main and roach, small foretriangle, forward-set mast and non-continuous cross-shroud arrangement it depends on the jib very little for drive, even close hauled. The jib just provides some balance and trim.

Trying to compare a B&R with a normal masthead sloop is interesting but mainly subjective.

The B&R was invented by a couple guys named Lars Bergstrom and Sven Ridder, and it was bred and born as a high performance racing rig. It has some advantages, like you can break a shroud with everything at full load and the rig won't come down. BUT - extreme high-performance stuff has a tendency to turn around and bite if you make a mistake. However, that doesn't make it "bad". For the folks who like that stuff it makes it fun. If you want something more forgiving, then don't buy one.
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Old 08-02-2014, 14:28   #173
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pirate Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post

LOL! Somebody runs their Hunter aground and busts the rudder off. They get on the internet forum and it goes on for 11 or 12 pages ... After going over every square mm of that boat I guarantee you there is nothing "cheap built" about a Hunter. In fact they are more stout than most other boats I have worked on or looked at in critical areas like chainplates, keel, and mast step... If I'm going to run a boat aground I'd rather do it with a Hunter than most others.

What I'm reading here is a bunch of folks who are sitting around in front of computers and typing about sailing. And not enough folks actually doing it, or with enough experience to back up their claims. Makes for some good entertainment. But the entertainment value is about all that's valid. Just sayin'
Gotcha.

I don't have a dog in this fight as you do. When I was boat shopping for my presumptive last boat, of many, Hunters were interesting for the fact that they seem to offer so much for relatively little but the only one I've been aboard was the 31 with the broken rudder.

You're not really saying that you know what's what and the rest of us are boobs are you? I really mean no offense, NONE, but I'm a fairly critical and attentive reader here at CF, and I don't get where you have the "street cred" to back up your comments.

Cap, I have nothing against you or Hunters per se but I'd think you are taking a long walk on a short pier.

I like a good laugh as much as anyone, and probably more than most, and I'm still waiting for what's so "wildly hilarious" about this discussion. What are you "LOL" ing about?
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Old 08-02-2014, 15:19   #174
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
Well, I don't. The gybe is not an inherently safe maneuver in the first place. And even moreso when you're sailing something with a main as big as a B&R carries. A good sailor will have a preventer rigged.


.

Ok so your educated view is that sailing dead downwind with the boom at a narrow angle and a fin keel (my bad spade rudder doesnt come into play) your no more prone to accidental gybing than with a full keel boat with the boom at a wide angle I appreciate your love for your boat but Im not going to alter my interpretation of physics to suit your imagination. I was merely pointing out a characteristic of the B&R rig that Ive noticed from experience.

On the plus side the ones Ive sailed on sail upwind like a dream. My brother has a 460 that he puts a lot of ocean miles on. Wouldnt think I could keep up with him in my wildest imagination. His boat has plaques galore in it from winning and placing in ocean races somewhere in the bahamas with the prior owner. It came with a racing main with a huge amount of roach and a beautiful spinnaker.
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Old 08-02-2014, 15:38   #175
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

[QUOTE= If I'm going to run a boat aground I'd rather do it with a Hunter than most others.

LOL LOL LOL mines even safer than this drawing. The rudder sits about 5" above the bottom of the keel.










Quote:
What I'm reading here is a bunch of folks who are sitting around in front of computers and typing about sailing. And not enough folks actually doing it, or with enough experience to back up their claims. Makes for some good entertainment. But the entertainment value is about all that's valid. Just sayin'
Just got in from 250 solo sail Key West to Marathon to tampa. Engineless the last 150 mi. Engine is in parts getting painted and doing annual maintenance. Yes Im sitting here with some time on my hands. Its 100% humidity today here and not conditions to paint in.
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Old 08-02-2014, 16:55   #176
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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You're not really saying that you know what's what and the rest of us are boobs are you?
Not all all. I'm as much of a boob as the next guy. What's funny to me about when these Hunter threads come up is all the naysayers that come out of the woodwork. Including the obligatory "Hunters are only made for coastal cruising". It's the same every time and I get a big bang out of it.
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Old 08-02-2014, 17:05   #177
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
Not all all. I'm as much of a boob as the next guy. What's funny to me about when these Hunter threads come up is all the naysayers that come out of the woodwork. Including the obligatory "Hunters are only made for coastal cruising". It's the same every time and I get a big bang out of it.
No the funny part is that if a Hunter owner posts against a naysayer they just say they are just lair, after all they are a Hunter owner.
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Old 08-02-2014, 17:57   #178
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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Ok so your educated view is that sailing dead downwind with the boom at a narrow angle and a fin keel (my bad spade rudder doesnt come into play) your no more prone to accidental gybing than with a full keel boat with the boom at a wide angle.
The pros and cons of the B&R can be argued ad nausem, probably. It was invented by the same two dudes that invented the Windex, and the B&R23 which was another of their innovations that was well ahead of its time. It comes from the racing world. It can't be sailed or tuned like a conventional rig. It is used on high-performance boats all over the world and has a reputation of being one of the most reliable rigs ever devised. And it's actually quite simple with no inner forestay, no inner shrouds, no running backstay. But its simplicity seems to baffle folks who are only familiar with conventional rigs.

Trying to compare the B&R to a conventional rig and how they sail is like this because it's like most things from the world of racing - it's a different animal. If you're not willing to relearn what you thought you knew about how tune and trim a rig, then you're not going to get along with it very well. Your description of somebody you know continuous gybing one and slamming it up against the stops until the boom busted illustrates that perfectly. Whoever did that did not know what they are doing. So what's the obvious thing to do? Blame it on the rig. Frickin' thing won't swing out there far enough because them wires in the way.
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Old 08-02-2014, 18:31   #179
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Cruisingcouple,

We owned a Hunter 450. Yes, it did have excessive weather helm, was difficult to balance the sails and sailing downwind was not one of it's stronger points with the swept back spreaders. I believe any of these three facts would contribute to possible excessive stress on the rudder and post. Observations from experience with the boat... Not inexperience or "out of the woodwork" as you write.

Don't be so defensive, some of us are just trying to be helpful to the OP. Please see post #148 for a better write up.

Contrary to what you and other Hunter enthusiasts imply by calling some of us "naysayers" or "bashers" as another writes, I strongly recommended purchasing a 450 to another CF member just this past week. It would be the perfect boat for him and his wife for their intended purpose.... Florida coastal cruising, the Bahamas and the Caribbean.
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Old 08-02-2014, 20:42   #180
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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We owned a Hunter 450. Yes, it did have excessive weather helm, was difficult to balance the sails and sailing downwind was not one of it's stronger points with the swept back spreaders
Kenomac, I don't know who your rigger or tuner is on your 450, but most folks tune them with too much aft rake.

On the B&R the diagonals take the place of the inner forestay and the lowers with the swept spreaders take the place of the running backstays. If the mast bend is right for the sail cut (adjusting the diagonals with the shrouds and stays loose), and you have no lee falloff at the top of the mast above the top spreaders on a tack, then the uppers are fine. And all you have to do is take some rake out of the mast to fix your weather helm. That part is no different than a conventional rig. A good rigger or tuner who is familiar with the B&R should be able tune the weather helm out within an hour sailing her in a decent 15-20kt breeze.

The B&R was never really designed for exceptional downwind performance. It's designed for a reach where it really excels.

Warren Luhrs won the OSTAR in the early 80's sailing that rig, which was pretty much experimental at the time. Luhrs, of course, went on to found Hunter and he was somewhat of a visionary and firmly believed in that rig. Interestingly, it is also used on the British Hunters and when Luhrs founded Hunter USA he sold his boats as Legend Yachts in the UK. A lot of that early heritage and Luhr's influence has stuck in various Hunters over the years, while others have fallen by the wayside. One thing that stuck was that B&R rig. I like it and even though it's elegantly simple, it's not that easy to understand how to tune it.
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