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Old 12-09-2013, 09:11   #136
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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Could be because Hunter use the B&G rig , big mainsail with lot or roach , unbalanced sailplan? small rudder? weather helm.
Maybe...my boat (not a Hunter or B&G rig) has a good sized main and at 15 knots I need a single reef or I'm in for a workout. My headsail size choice matters but the main seems to be more the culprit for weather helm on my particular boat. I can only imagine that this is amplified on a larger main.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:30   #137
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

I think steering issues referenced above likely have to do with the compromise that gives Hunters, Benes, etc, cavernous (boat-selling) interiors- wide aft beam and transoms with "flat runs aft."
This is touted as promoting surfing (as if this is the goal in a cruising boat?) but in reality makes boats tougher to self-steer as a few degrees of heel lifts the rudder up and down in the water a lot more, and changes waterflow aft, and makes boat "nosedive" a little because the stern lifts up more as it heels onto the chine or turn of the waterline. Don't think this is Hunter specific, but more specific of current trends in cruising boats.

I chartered a bene 46 a few years back and really enjoyed it (especially cabin space), but found the same issue- upwind in breeze was just tougher than I expected to find the groove. The steering changed dramatically with heel angle, much more than the boats I am used to cruising and racing, which have more moderate beam aft.

All boats are a compromise- I disagree with the notion that extremely wide beam aft makes boats sail better (for cruising) but I do agree they make cockpits and cabins much more liveable.
If you can ever get a ride on a J/42 (their cruising boat from last decade) you'll never sail such a fast and sweet feeling boat. So easy to self-steer upwind and reaching. Narrow aft quarters.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:31   #138
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Well, looking again at the sailplan of some Hunters with the B&g rig, i believe some weather helm is caused by the mainsail, to big and and the headsail to small, and the only way come to mind to ease the weather helm is to put a reef in the main and got a biger headsail, just thinking.. the sailplan to my eyes is unbalanced , yes someone can say AP steer nice, but how you know how hard is working ? could be another indicator of premature rudder failure??
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:47   #139
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

B&R rig unbalanced, what a load of crap!
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:57   #140
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Not the rig, sailplan, other posters point excesive weather helm, could be the big roach mainsail, small headsail, without backstays the headsail can sag like a spaghetti noodle , for tacking is cool, upwind to, beam reach ,downwind is another history....
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:05   #141
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

My B&R boat doesn't have excessive weather helm. In fact it normally has hardly any and the boat sails along with just a few degrees of rudder.

If others have excessive weather helm they should learn how to sail their boat and not blame the boat for their poor sail trim (this applies to any boat).

You people are just looking to be part of a herd to make yourself feel superior, but you are just so full of crap!
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:10   #142
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

A large main sail in itself does not cause a boat that is hard to handle as the designer simply moves the mast aft to balance the sail plan. If you want to take it even further then look at a CAT rig which is main sail only and they sail just fine.
There is enough good info these days that a poor design is less likely to be produced. Now if you had told me that you owned an early Tayana 37 and were experiencing excessive weather helm then I'd believe you.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:20   #143
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well, looking again at the sailplan of some Hunters with the B&g rig, i believe some weather helm is caused by the mainsail, to big and and the headsail to small, and the only way come to mind to ease the weather helm is to put a reef in the main and got a biger headsail, just thinking.. the sailplan to my eyes is unbalanced , yes someone can say AP steer nice, but how you know how hard is working ? could be another indicator of premature rudder failure??

Have you actually *tried* that on a Hunger? I don't think you would find that a smaller mainsail and bigger headsail would improve anything. Getting those sails in balance is crucial and if you have it, you'll have a creampuff of a day. Put too much headsail on for the conditions (or the size of the mainsail) and she'll squat on her ass and want to pivot. NOT fun.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:22   #144
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

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B&R rig unbalanced, what a load of crap!

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:22   #145
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Yes Robert , some points to consider, Hunters have the mast well fwd, and cats dont heel, B&G rigs are notorious for have a excesive mast rake moving the center of efort back ,boat turning upwind, but hey i dont say this is dangerous or bad, to much is something to consider...
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:25   #146
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
My B&R boat doesn't have excessive weather helm. In fact it normally has hardly any and the boat sails along with just a few degrees of rudder.

If others have excessive weather helm they should learn how to sail their boat and not blame the boat for their poor sail trim (this applies to any boat).

You people are just looking to be part of a herd to make yourself feel superior, but you are just so full of crap!

My hunter has little weather helm unless I don't have the right sails for the condition. In other words, don't look to the boat for the problem.

Get her in the groove and well set, and she's like riding a high-spirited stallion who knows exactly what he needs to do. You can feel it in your feet.

I don't think she handles like most boats her size, but with that big fat stern I wouldn't expect her to. You have to cooperate with my boat, or be frustrated.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:01   #147
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Many times every year I sail on a few different Hunters from a new 36' to about an 8 year old 46'. All have inmast furling and none have what I would call excessive weather helm. If overpowered, easily done on the 36', they will exhibit a fair amount of weather helm but that can be easily fixed by some reefing or easing the traveler. All the Hunters I've been on sail pretty well and exhibit decent manners. I do not like the shape of the battenless inmast main but I don't like it on the Benes or Jeanneaus either. That is another subject, along with the traveler over my head that's obscured by the bimini!
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:03   #148
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

As I understand the primary point of this Hunter thread posted by Rakuflames is to get to the bottom as to why certain Hunter boats have experienced rudder failure. Why is it, that when I or other menbers even mention a personal experience on a Hunter which we've owned and sailed extensively, it's somehow unacceptable and viewed as an attack on the Hunter brand? I simply stated a first hand experience so that the original poster can take this information and hopefully find it useful.

Like another poster, we always felt while we owned the Hunter that the additional load on the Hunter rudder was normal for a larger boat and never thought it to be anything out of the ordinary. It was only when we sailed other boats, like an Oyster or our friend's Beneteau 461 that we discovered how much easier it is to balance the sails which in turn resulted in less steering effort.

I really just don't get it? Do Hunter owners want answers and suggestions when problems surface.... or just compliments?

I simply observed that there was a significant effort required to steer and balance our 450 compared to other boats we've sailed. Maybe these issues would be better settled on the Hunter owners forum rather than on a forum which invites suggestions from folks who own boats other than Hunters.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:14   #149
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
As I understand the primary point of this Hunter thread posted by Rakuflames is to get to the bottom as to why certain Hunter boats have experienced rudder failure. Why is it, that when I even mention a personal experience on a Hunter which I owned and sailed extensively, it's somehow unacceptable and viewed as an attack on the Hunter brand? I simply stated a first hand experience so that the original poster can take this information and hopefully find it useful.

Like another poster, we always felt while we owned the Hunter that the additional load on the Hunter rudder was normal for a larger boat and never thought it to be anything out of the ordinary. It was only when we sailed other boats, like an Oyster or our friend's Beneteau 461 that we discovered how much easier it is to balance the sails which in turn resulted in less steering effort.

I really just don't get it? Do Hunter owners want answers and suggestions when problems surface.... or just compliments?

I simply observed that there was a significant effort required to steer and balance our 450 compared to other boats we've sailed. Maybe these issues would be better settled on the Hunter owners forum rather than on a forum which invites suggestions from folks who own boats other than Hunters.

+1 This topic is very instructive not only for Hunter Owners but for others to, i just simply point the sailplan fact to get questions and answers , meaning that others point excesive weather helm and this topic is about Hunter rudders, well maybe there is a conection or not? who know? Hunters owners can be ofended , well let me tell ya that if there is a row of boats with the same problem is because something is wrong, by accident by owners fault or by builder fault, thats the point, i love to go deep in the problem, thats why im working right now with a friends rigger, we found manufacturer flaws and we improve the whole thing, same with other boat problems... why so much fear from Hunter owners to face the problem.?
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:29   #150
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Re: ANOTHER Hunter rudder!

I'm not convinced of the original permise, which appears to be a high incident of Hunter rudder failures, is valid. Production boats like a Hunter (and others) sell at much higher rates than lots of other offshore or semi-custom boats. Their shear numbers has something to do with it. Also the OP owns a Hunter so he' s sensitive to any Hunter news around. When I cruised a J-Boat I knew about all the lost J's that occurred. It didn't indicate poor builds on the J's.
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