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Old 12-01-2015, 12:54   #121
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Yes sorry if i say Beneteau in general, i have no idea about the 393, could be nice if you please give us info about your rudder setup, just curious how is solved in the 393, but im 100% sure that the whole 2000 2012 Oceanis series , Cyclades, suffer from this OEM Fiasco. The new Oceanis , at least the 55 have doublé rudders... no idea with the new 2 rudders boats.
I'll try to remember to take some pics when I have to go down into the lazz next.

FYI, the 393 is an Oceanis series Beneteau built from 2002-2006, as was the 411 before it (1997-2005), as was the 400 before it (1991-1997), with the 390 before that. Perhaps you are thinking of the 2007-present models who actually use the word "Oceanis" in their name?

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Old 12-01-2015, 12:55   #122
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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You mean that the fact that several of the Beneteaus built on the period that Neil says that they all have a fiasco rudder had circumnavigated without any rudder problem is not fact enough for you regarding abusive generalizations?

You guys really surprise me sometimes.
Is it possible, hypotetically speaking of course, one or more which we do not know anything about had broken rudder and sunken without anybody receiving any emergency request.
So without knowing every sailors whereabouts all the time everywhere you cannot prove anything. Anyway, some boats seem to be disappearing every year thou we don't know what happened to them..
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Old 12-01-2015, 13:09   #123
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Is it possible, hypotetically speaking of course, one or more which we do not know anything about had broken rudder and sunken without anybody receiving any emergency request.
So without knowing every sailors whereabouts all the time everywhere you cannot prove anything. Anyway, some boats seem to be disappearing every year thou we don't know what happened to them..
I don't know about that one, but the fact remains that between the lack of regulation & reporting requirements (as opposed to autos, aviation, commercial marine), the necessity of repairs getting done at the closest facility vs. an authorized dealer, and the majority of recreational boats that see little usage, it's hard to get a handle on how widespread, if at all, any problems may be.
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Old 12-01-2015, 13:10   #124
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

In engineering terms it's Miner's law that will catch you out eventually.

Without the need for us all to put on propellor hats let me explain for those looking for fact rather than opinion.

Any thing subject to dynamic loading can accept a finite amount of cyclic loading over its lifetime. Some materials we know very precisely what the cycles and safe static loads are. For Aluminum for example 10e7 cycles is it. Thanks to the Rolls Royce creep studies, started in the 1930s and still going today, we can make reliable gas turbines, crankshafts and con rods. Composites are well understood in aerospace but in marine use we have little objective data.

What Miner's law does is allow us to add up all the loads and cycles and predict at what point failure WILL occur. Note that the max loads most materials can accept degrades over time above a certain minimum infinite life load.

The problem with applying Miner's law in practice is in not knowing the service life of a thing. In motorsport, my background, we know every load and the cycles for many components which allows us to predict useful life with great confidence.

With a pre owned yacht we know very little. One grounding can consume much of the useful life of a rudder. Failure may not occur until weeks, months or years later. We manage this with a maintenance program and design upgrades.

For me personally we chose a Liberty 458 because the rudder is skeg mounted, over engineered and mounted in double sheer. For our personal blue water needs a single sheer rudder posed survivability risks we weren't prepared to accept. For others they want the performance benefit of a single sheer rudder.

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Old 12-01-2015, 13:38   #125
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

So, Polux, please remind us what your expertise is. Do you service boats? Do you sell boats? Or are you just voicing uninformed opinions?
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Old 12-01-2015, 13:43   #126
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

I think the security of the internal rudder tube is a major area of concern in many AWBs these days. The cabin accommodation has squeezed the area where tabbing can be used to stay the tube, now you'll find tubes stayed to the bulkhead etc.

I remember looking at a Moody DS45 ( ?) you know the all glass affair, It has twin rudders, and literarily its rudder tubes almost stick up unstayed into the interior.

That why I say, if you have a grounding that affects a spade rudder, then you need careful inspection and most definitely a haul out . I continuously surprised at people that experience often "mild" groundings who don't haul and inspect. Equally often mild grounding are nothing of the sort.

I personally am not aware of any rudder just falling off, or breaking a rudder tube, without some sort of history.

Having personally watched a rudder tube start to work open a split in the middle of an Atlantic F9-F10, I don't want that experience again .
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Old 12-01-2015, 15:27   #127
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Reality is that boats that get used much will very likely have "soft groundings" (whatever the hell that really means) now and then. A design that requires the boat to be lifted and carefully inspected after each and every such incident fails my personal definition of adequate strength and durability.

If such treatment is indeed required for our much discussed mass production boats, those who claim that they are not fit for purpose sound pretty spot on to me.

The endless quotation of examples of such boats making successful voyages does not relieve the manufacturers of responsibility for those examples whose voyages are not successful due to structural failures. Nor does the possibility of a minor grounding prior to failure mitigate the responsibility IMO, simply because such groundings are a normal part of the sailing experience.

Each buyer has the choices laid out before them, and obviously a great many folks choose to purchase price-point vessels. I wonder if the salesman told them that every time they touched the bottom an expensive haulout and survey would be required, if then they would make the same decision. I honestly don't know... what do you all think?

Jim
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Old 12-01-2015, 15:38   #128
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

One of my many " soft groundings ". Never thought to haul out and inspect, just wait for the tide. Click image for larger version

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Old 12-01-2015, 15:41   #129
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Reality is that boats that get used much will very likely have "soft groundings" (whatever the hell that really means) now and then. A design that requires the boat to be lifted and carefully inspected after each and every such incident fails my personal definition of adequate strength and durability.

If such treatment is indeed required for our much discussed mass production boats, those who claim that they are not fit for purpose sound pretty spot on to me.

The endless quotation of examples of such boats making successful voyages does not relieve the manufacturers of responsibility for those examples whose voyages are not successful due to structural failures. Nor does the possibility of a minor grounding prior to failure mitigate the responsibility IMO, simply because such groundings are a normal part of the sailing experience.

Each buyer has the choices laid out before them, and obviously a great many folks choose to purchase price-point vessels. I wonder if the salesman told them that every time they touched the bottom an expensive haulout and survey would be required, if then they would make the same decision. I honestly don't know... what do you all think?

Jim
I agree with you Jim. The logic that these new boats while priced very affordable are somehow built as well or even better than the older quality boats has just never passed the smell test with me. The logic that the Navel Architects always produce a safe well built boat no matter how much it has been nickeled and dimed to get the cost down also doesn't ring the bell of common sense. I think most of them will safely cross oceans and I think some of them would be better left in the charter market where they can be serviced on a regular basis. I'm not sure why but the buyers understand if they buy a cheap car, its, well, cheap and if they buy a cheaply built home it is, well, cheap but they buy a cheaply built boat and they expect that it is anything but cheaply built.
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Old 12-01-2015, 16:11   #130
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

I want to make sure that my comments are not about all Benni's nor all new entry level boats but in particular the Cyclades models. There certainly are many Benni models that are great boats for offshore sailing I just don't think this is one of them!
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Old 12-01-2015, 16:12   #131
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
I'll try to remember to take some pics when I have to go down into the lazz next.

FYI, the 393 is an Oceanis series Beneteau built from 2002-2006, as was the 411 before it (1997-2005), as was the 400 before it (1991-1997), with the 390 before that. Perhaps you are thinking of the 2007-present models who actually use the word "Oceanis" in their name?

Frank
Basically since 2000 to 2012, i believe is when they start to screw things badly, i believe the small models like the 393 the 36CC, and the small family is safe in this regard, most likely from 40Ft upward, the Bene 50 without the Oceanis tag on it is safe in this matter since the top part of the tube rest in the top part of the deck, the tube itself dont have any support inside , just the top bearing in the deck, but at least it have some kind of strong support up there, the Oceanis 50, 46, 43,and 40 if i remember well have the funny ikea BS as structure support... just saying ... Thx anyway if you can take some shoots from your rudder tube somehow...
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Old 12-01-2015, 16:17   #132
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Reality is that boats that get used much will very likely have "soft groundings" (whatever the hell that really means) now and then. A design that requires the boat to be lifted and carefully inspected after each and every such incident fails my personal definition of adequate strength and durability.

If such treatment is indeed required for our much discussed mass production boats, those who claim that they are not fit for purpose sound pretty spot on to me.

The endless quotation of examples of such boats making successful voyages does not relieve the manufacturers of responsibility for those examples whose voyages are not successful due to structural failures. Nor does the possibility of a minor grounding prior to failure mitigate the responsibility IMO, simply because such groundings are a normal part of the sailing experience.

Each buyer has the choices laid out before them, and obviously a great many folks choose to purchase price-point vessels. I wonder if the salesman told them that every time they touched the bottom an expensive haulout and survey would be required, if then they would make the same decision. I honestly don't know... what do you all think?

Jim
+++

Well put and I agree. I also think that a lot of folks have absolutely no idea of how their boat is put together or what to look for if they were to inspect it themselves.
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Old 12-01-2015, 16:54   #133
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I hadn't thought of it your way, which is correct. I thought Polux was referring to the rudder shaft breaking away inside the hull like in the couple's video. Having the tip break off under excessive loads like you suggest is a good idea.
Indeed. Unfortunately, however, there is a gap between a good idea and good implementation. The Hylas 54 -- a magnificent boat, a very expensive boat, designed by German Frers -- has just this feature designed into its partial skeg rudder. And unfortunately has suffered a plague of the bottom part of the rudder breaking off.

You need a combination of very strong connection between the rudder and the structure of the boat (and the keel also). And some kind of controlled failure of that part of the appendage which is outside the hull. I guess it is a lot easier said than done.
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:02   #134
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Reality is that boats that get used much will very likely have "soft groundings" (whatever the hell that really means) now and then. A design that requires the boat to be lifted and carefully inspected after each and every such incident fails my personal definition of adequate strength and durability.

If such treatment is indeed required for our much discussed mass production boats, those who claim that they are not fit for purpose sound pretty spot on to me.

The endless quotation of examples of such boats making successful voyages does not relieve the manufacturers of responsibility for those examples whose voyages are not successful due to structural failures. Nor does the possibility of a minor grounding prior to failure mitigate the responsibility IMO, simply because such groundings are a normal part of the sailing experience.

Each buyer has the choices laid out before them, and obviously a great many folks choose to purchase price-point vessels. I wonder if the salesman told them that every time they touched the bottom an expensive haulout and survey would be required, if then they would make the same decision. I honestly don't know... what do you all think?

Jim
I don't necessarily agree. No boat's structure is immune from failure -- it's all a question of degree and how much money you're willing (or able) to spend.

I spent a fair amount of time sailing a Bene 423 Oceanis -- not mine, but chartered. Obviously lightly built, no collision bulkheads, light single skin flexy hull, etc. That lightness gave it lovely sailing qualities, and it was dirt cheap. It was a really good boat, intelligently designed; a thorough pleasure to sail. Why is it unreasonable to take some risk of structural problems, in exchange for those qualities? Everyone has to make his own choices.
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:20   #135
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Is it possible, hypotetically speaking of course, one or more which we do not know anything about had broken rudder and sunken without anybody receiving any emergency request.
So without knowing every sailors whereabouts all the time everywhere you cannot prove anything. Anyway, some boats seem to be disappearing every year thou we don't know what happened to them..
You mean that boats that are circumnavigating the World ARC can disappear without trace without nobody talking about them? There was several Beneteaus (Oceanis and Cyclades from the years Neil referred as having fiasco rudders) doing that circumnavigation (in different years) without problem.

Taking in consideration what he says about the fragility and fiasco quality of those rudders no way any of them would be able to do 35 000nm on a circumnavigation....and yet they do, several of them!!!
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