Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-01-2015, 23:50   #91
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
Had a similar problem with a Bene 43 centre cockpit enroute from Panama to Tahiti. Graunching sounds turned out to be the fact that the rudder tube was glassed to the rear bulkhead without any mechanical fastening and had delaminated off the bulkhead - end result? the rudder tube was 'walking' across the lazarette and would have eventually snapped off at the hull through join. Quick fix was to set up spanish windlasses each side of the tube fastening it to the more solid auto pilot assembly. This restricted sideways movement, we then put the emergency steering rod into the hexed top of the rudder stock which restricted fore and aft movement. This lasted from just west of the Galapagos to Tahiti where more solid mechanical fasteners were fabricated and fitted. Guess I'm not the biggest Bene fan in the world!
Had the Bene suffered any prior groundings that you were aware of?
__________________

__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 06:20   #92
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
the rudder tube was glassed to the rear bulkhead without any mechanical fastening
Maybe I don't understand your meaning, but most rudder tubes are not mechanically fastened to the boat. All the ones I have seen are glassed - usually to the hull at the bottom and to a horizontal bulkhead at the top.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 06:32   #93
Registered User
 
LeaseOnLife's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: out cruising again
Boat: Sailboat
Posts: 1,046
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Recall: Good to see a sturdier support.

Original design&build:
3 Videos of a B43 "Steady" with similar problems.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC5...QtH4bYe-VmRztA

Amazing....

Dirk
__________________
LeaseOnLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:24   #94
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaseOnLife View Post
Recall: Good to see a sturdier support.

Original design&build:
3 Videos of a B43 "Steady" with similar problems.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC5...QtH4bYe-VmRztA

Amazing....

Dirk
Now thank you for the link, , that only explain one thing, those Beneteaus rudder posts suck so bad , awful construction .... and where are those Bene fanatics now when i say in the rudder failure topic that this isue is a serious warning for those who own a Beneteau...??
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:36   #95
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada
Boat: None yet
Posts: 74
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Interesting, was the damage caused by a grounding?

It would be even more interesting to see pictures/videos of rudder attachment systems on a diverse array of sailboats. How do other manufacturers design attachment systems? (Pictures please) What are the attachments on newer Bene 45's like? What about the dual rudder boats?
__________________
fozrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:53   #96
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Well, it's one thing to have the bottom portion of a spade rudder designed/constructed to be 'sacrificial' in the event of a grounding or severe impact. The Hunter Passage 420 grounded near Hampton Roads in advance of Hurricane Irene that I pictured in the Avalon/cleat failure thread produced some photographs that showed very clear evidence of Hunter's 'sacrificial' design. The bottom 12-18 inches of the rudder was cleanly snapped off, showing nothing but foam inside the rudder, as the rudder stock obviously terminated above that point... Nothing inherently wrong with such a 'fuse' being designed into such a rudder, particularly on a shoal draft boat, where the difference between the depth of the keel, and that of the rudder, can often be minimal...

However, what failed on this Beneteau was PART OF THE STRUCTURE SUPPORTING THE RUDDER SHAFT INSIDE THE HULL !!! Are you actually suggesting THAT is part of the rudder assembly that should, in effect, be 'Designed to Fail' in the face of a severe impact or excessive force? Seriously? At least, without a watertight bulkhead in place that would isolate that compartment from the rest of the boat?

Isn't that exactly what caused the sinking of the Beneteau BLUE PEARL in the Atlantic last spring? Where the failure of the interior rudder shaft structure inside the boat allowed the unsupported rudder shaft, subject to voilent wave action, to work like a can opener to eventually open up a hole around the rudder bearing in the hull?

Again, it's one thing to have failures or breakages or bending of a rudder outside of the hull... But once structural components begin to fail inside the boat, that's a whole different ballgame... And again, if any builder actually intends for such an assembly to be 'sacrificial', they damn well better isolate that compartment from the rest of the boat with a watertight bulkhead... :-)

Interestingly, a similar failure seems to have been in the process of occurring when Stanley Paris abandoned his second attempt at his solo circumnavigation on KIWI SPIRIT... Sounds like the failure of his mainsail which caused him to bail out into Cape Town may have been a blessing in disguise, he might have easily wound up with a big hole in the back of that boat, if one of his rudders had continued to drop...


+1! Anybody who thinks a rudder will simply "fall out" as Polux stated after it's interior fittings have failed has never removed a rudder before. Extremely naive. And on the majority of boats, if it did the boat would sink.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 07:53   #97
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Caused by a grounding,, my ass,,,
Sorry..
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:03   #98
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,918
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Hi Tech junk construction, look how thin the glass laminate is where it broke.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:10   #99
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,756
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
Had a similar problem with a Bene 43 centre cockpit enroute from Panama to Tahiti. Graunching sounds turned out to be the fact that the rudder tube was glassed to the rear bulkhead without any mechanical fastening and had delaminated off the bulkhead - end result? the rudder tube was 'walking' across the lazarette and would have eventually snapped off at the hull through join. Quick fix was to set up spanish windlasses each side of the tube fastening it to the more solid auto pilot assembly. This restricted sideways movement, we then put the emergency steering rod into the hexed top of the rudder stock which restricted fore and aft movement. This lasted from just west of the Galapagos to Tahiti where more solid mechanical fasteners were fabricated and fitted. Guess I'm not the biggest Bene fan in the world!
Definitively it seems that there are a problem with those supports on the Oceanis 43/Cyclades 43. Maybe the intention was made them weak enough to break with a shock but obviously they were badly calculated.

Anyway the problem was identified by Beneteau that made a Recall on that model (the Cyclades 43 and the Oceanis 43 have the same hull and rudder system).

"How many member/owners of post 2008 and up to 2010 Oceanis 40 and 43 models have been contacted by their dealer offering the significant modification to the top of the rudder post assembly.
I was alerted by a posting in the SeaKnots group but have failed to note too much further activity. My dealer in Queensland, Australia has supplied the steel plate assembly and the labour to fit it, all without any trouble on my behalf."


Probably some boats were impossible to be find and the owners did not took notice?
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:21   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Canada
Boat: None yet
Posts: 74
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Definitively it seems that there are a problem with those supports on the Oceanis 43/Cyclades 43. Maybe the intention was made them weak enough to break with a shock but obviously they were badly calculated.

Anyway the problem was identified by Beneteau that made a Recall on that model (the Cyclades 43 and the Oceanis 43 have the same hull and rudder system).

"How many member/owners of post 2008 and up to 2010 Oceanis 40 and 43 models have been contacted by their dealer offering the significant modification to the top of the rudder post assembly.
I was alerted by a posting in the SeaKnots group but have failed to note too much further activity. My dealer in Queensland, Australia has supplied the steel plate assembly and the labour to fit it, all without any trouble on my behalf."


Probably some boats were impossible to be find and the owners did not took notice?
Now that's useful information. Thanks
__________________
fozrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:26   #101
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,918
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Definitively it seems that there are a problem with those supports on the Oceanis 43/Cyclades 43. Maybe the intention was made them weak enough to break with a shock but obviously they were badly calculated.

Anyway the problem was identified by Beneteau that made a Recall on that model (the Cyclades 43 and the Oceanis 43 have the same hull and rudder system).

"How many member/owners of post 2008 and up to 2010 Oceanis 40 and 43 models have been contacted by their dealer offering the significant modification to the top of the rudder post assembly.
I was alerted by a posting in the SeaKnots group but have failed to note too much further activity. My dealer in Queensland, Australia has supplied the steel plate assembly and the labour to fit it, all without any trouble on my behalf."


Probably some boats were impossible to be find and the owners did not took notice?
Polux I know you have a real passion for the newer boats and you believe the sun rises and sets on the Navel Architects who design these boats and all the new world engineering that goes into them however when something like this piece of crap sits right in front of your face you still believe that it is a good product that carries a CE rating class A offshore and can be sailed anywhere. Forget the recall, thats the second best idea, instead "question" these so called world class designers and builders who produced this.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:26   #102
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,756
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozrunner View Post
Interesting, was the damage caused by a grounding?

It would be even more interesting to see pictures/videos of rudder attachment systems on a diverse array of sailboats. How do other manufacturers design attachment systems? (Pictures please) What are the attachments on newer Bene 45's like? What about the dual rudder boats?
Many production boats use now Jeffa systems. They are high quality and don't need any support at the middle (at least the ones that use a steel or carbon shaft).

Jefa Rudder bearings

Most of the others that don't use them have pretty much copies of them.
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:32   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I have some experience with rudder tubes failing inside a boat , a delivery through a bad ( very bad ) storm and the rudder tube split , turns out there was " previous damage " from a grounding

I know very few modern fin keeled boats whose rudder can take any type of grounding damage or are designed to take any weight from the boat onto the bottom , in fact with the strength of modern construction , it can cause an immense lever moment in the hull, damaging the tube supports.

My view is that any grounding affecting the rudder should be cause for careful inspection inside and outside the boat.

In the UK the only boats sitting on any hard at low tide are bilge keelers , and you will see that the rudder is above the bottom of the keel.

Dave
Thank you. This was my point earlier.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:34   #104
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,756
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Polux I know you have a real passion for the newer boats and you believe the sun rises and sets on the Navel Architects who design these boats and all the new world engineering that goes into them however when something like this piece of crap sits right in front of your face you still believe that it is a good product that carries a CE rating class A offshore and can be sailed anywhere. Forget the recall, thats the second best idea, instead "question" these so called world class designers and builders who produced this.
It seems you are the first to recognize that the rudder on your Moody is not well designed and suffer premature wear.

I don't know what is your point.

Any NA or boat builder can get it wrong. The good ones make a recall and pay everything, some others make a recall but make the owners pay part of it (Hunter). On the Moody case it is known that they have some problems with the rudders (what you say and also premature wear on the waterproof seals) no recall was possible since Moody bankrupted.
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 08:40   #105
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Definitively it seems that there are a problem with those supports on the Oceanis 43/Cyclades 43. Maybe the intention was made them weak enough to break with a shock but obviously they were badly calculated.

Anyway the problem was identified by Beneteau that made a Recall on that model (the Cyclades 43 and the Oceanis 43 have the same hull and rudder system).

"How many member/owners of post 2008 and up to 2010 Oceanis 40 and 43 models have been contacted by their dealer offering the significant modification to the top of the rudder post assembly.
I was alerted by a posting in the SeaKnots group but have failed to note too much further activity. My dealer in Queensland, Australia has supplied the steel plate assembly and the labour to fit it, all without any trouble on my behalf."


Probably some boats were impossible to be find and the owners did not took notice?
If Beneteau identified the problem , i dont understand why they still doing the same thing this days with the Oceanis series , if you read Rudder failures topic at page 10 you can see a Brand new Oceanis with the same rudder stock config...
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Through Hull-Valve Broken or Not-Broken? Jado27 Monohull Sailboats 15 16-03-2016 07:14
Bene 42s7 Draft and First Hull laswack Monohull Sailboats 0 03-01-2011 01:58
Know a Bene Idylle 13.5 Owner in the PNW? delandtom Monohull Sailboats 0 22-10-2010 13:08
Broken Bits knottybuoyz Engines and Propulsion Systems 8 11-11-2009 12:23
Jeanneau VS. Hunter or Bene? Aquah0lic Monohull Sailboats 34 19-08-2009 10:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.