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Old 11-01-2015, 14:02   #76
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Hard to use a boat that had already experienced enough earlier damage to require a rudder replacement to make a point about the design elements of rudders. In my opinion.

That is speculation as it was supposedly inspected. I agree with the probability that there surely was hidden damage and or possibly a quality escape during manufacture or both, or even the theory that the autopilot may have contributed.
But we will never know, and if there had not been video, we would know a whole lot less.

Lesson I believe to get out of this is not another Bene had a rudder failure, but if your rudder fails for whatever reason, best look real hard for hidden damage to other structure, regardless of the make of boat.
I think they "lost" their rudder originally while pretty much just sailing? The assumption was that there had been a previous grounding or whatever that caused the rudder to fail? But maybe there had been no previous grounding, maybe the rudder when it failed put some severe stresses on the rest of the structure.
More speculation of course.


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Old 11-01-2015, 14:11   #77
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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That is speculation as it was supposedly inspected. I agree with the probability that there surely was hidden damage and or possibly a quality escape during manufacture or both, or even the theory that the autopilot may have contributed.

It isn't speculation that the boat had already lost a rudder, that's a fact. It is speculation that a surveyor would be qualified to inspect a rudder tube afterwards or whether on a normal purchase survey that the surveyor would even inspect the rudder tube other than glance at it.

It is reasonable speculation to believe that a boat that has been damaged and lost a rudder, and that later has the rudder tube assembly come apart, that the losses are related to a common event.
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:25   #78
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Beneteau Cyclades 43 Review: Moorings Charter Boat - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage

Polux read this report on the boat. This is a very knowledgeable guy and he suggests that this boat, the 43 we are talking about is not a candidate for a safe offshore cruiser. The Cyclades 50 is built to similar scantlings and even though it is a larger boat my hunch is that it would get a similar review. I got exactly the same feedback from a well known surveyor in Europe. It is also interesting that it failed in the same place as the 50.
It's not just a knowledgeable guy, but presumably the owner of a high end yacht brokerage company who's self-interest is not exactly consistent with publishing anything derogatory about a popular yacht. I'm sure that, rather than considering his negative comments about the boat's offshore capabilities as derogatory, he's giving a realistic assessment while at the same time highlighting the boat's obvious strengths.

So is Richard Jordan of Jordan Yacht Brokerage also "very, very guilty" of bashing as some might say?
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:33   #79
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Beneteau Cyclades 43 Review: Moorings Charter Boat - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage

Polux read this report on the boat. This is a very knowledgeable guy and he suggests that this boat, the 43 we are talking about is not a candidate for a safe offshore cruiser. The Cyclades 50 is built to similar scantlings and even though it is a larger boat my hunch is that it would get a similar review. I got exactly the same feedback from a well known surveyor in Europe. It is also interesting that it failed in the same place as the 50.
The article states that while the Oceanis is rated for offshore work, the Cyclades is not rated for offshore work.

Does anyone know if that was a personal opinion, or a CE rating fact? It seemed stated as fact, and was in a different tone than what was clearly his personal opinions on other things.

Mark
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:46   #80
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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The article states that while the Oceanis is rated for offshore work, the Cyclades is not rated for offshore work.

Does anyone know if that was a personal opinion, or a CE rating fact? It seemed stated as fact, and was in a different tone than what was clearly his personal opinions on other things.

Mark
I don't know about the CE rating which from what I read doesn't mean all that much but he sure makes a point out of suggesting that it was made to compete with the Bavaria and it was nickled and dimed in every place possible. I had also heard about the forestay pulling loose on some charter boats in the Med. It sounds like it is a wonderful boat designed for a purpose and that purpose was for the charter market in the Caribbean and the Med. Personally I don't see a thing wrong with that myself.
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Old 11-01-2015, 15:10   #81
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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I don't know about the CE rating which from what I read doesn't mean all that much but he sure makes a point out of suggesting that it was made to compete with the Bavaria and it was nickled and dimed in every place possible. I had also heard about the forestay pulling loose on some charter boats in the Med. It sounds like it is a wonderful boat designed for a purpose and that purpose was for the charter market in the Caribbean and the Med. Personally I don't see a thing wrong with that myself.
The owners indicated in their last video that they were now in Gibralter and were planning an Atlantic crossing to the Caribbean. Maybe it will be like Robert's recent "milk run" and no big deal. It just makes me wonder how many buyers are dialed in to these ratings and how much it matters.
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Old 11-01-2015, 15:17   #82
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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The owners indicated in their last video that they were now in Gibralter and were planning an Atlantic crossing to the Caribbean. Maybe it will be like Robert's recent "milk run" and no big deal. It just makes me wonder how many buyers are dialed in to these ratings and how much it matters.
I wish them a great sail of course and I doubt very much whether they will have an big problems. It isn't one easy crossing that will test a boat but a longer term beating.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:18   #83
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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I'm getting confused here! Seems to me that in the case of Blue Pearl, the internal structure's failure lead directly to hull integrity failure, and thus the boat sank. To me, this indicates that the NA failed to provide what you (Pollux) are saying was there. If the rudder or the shaft had failed, the hull damage shown would not have occurred and the boat might have survived.
...
Jim
I never said it was there I said the rudder should be designed like that and it is expected a good NA to take that in consideration. I believe also that rudder had been replaced and I don't know if, like on the case of the Cyclades 43, they did not decide to "improve" it reinforcing it. Obviously it did not "work" in a sacrificial way, not compromising the hull but then as I said, this is a very dificult compromise, I mean to be strong enough not to break on normal use and bend or break face to a shock that can compromise the hull.

There are known cases were face to strong impacts the rudder was lost but the hull maintained the integrity. I would say that fortunately it happens more like that than losing the boat after a rudder loss.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:44   #84
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Beneteau Cyclades 43 Review: Moorings Charter Boat - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage

Polux read this report on the boat. This is a very knowledgeable guy and he suggests that this boat, the 43 we are talking about is not a candidate for a safe offshore cruiser. The Cyclades 50 is built to similar scantlings and even though it is a larger boat my hunch is that it would get a similar review. I got exactly the same feedback from a well known surveyor in Europe. It is also interesting that it failed in the same place as the 50.
Yes sure, it seems very knowledgeable to me. The main difference between the Oceanis and the Cyclades had nothing to do with the hull, steering or mast that are the same as on the Oceanis 43. The boat has less ports and a cheaper interior. He says also that the hull is balsa cored

So we says that the Oceanis 43 is a bluewater boat and this one is a coastal one? Maybe he only likes to go offshore with a better quality interior? Who knows?

If you look about the boats that I had posted that have circumnavigated without problems you will find Beneteau cyclades. In fact a owner of a 50 says how incredible is boat was for what it costed.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:53   #85
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Yes sure, it seems very knowledgeable to me. The main difference between the Oceanis and the Cyclades had nothing to do with the hull, steering or mast that are the same as on the Oceanis 43. The boat has less ports and a cheaper interior. He says also that the hull is balsa cored

So we says that the Oceanis 43 is a bluewater boat and this one is a coastal one? Maybe he only likes to go offshore with a better quality interior? Who knows?

If you look about the boats that I had posted that have circumnavigated without problems you will find Beneteau cyclades. In fact a owner of a 50 says how incredible is boat was for what it costed.
Well I don't think anyone is arguing about the value for money paid, its more about the quality of construction. The tone of the review to me anyways is that you could not build it any cheaper if you tried.
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Old 11-01-2015, 17:57   #86
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Thats a tough report regarding the Cyclades, sure it fail in terms of general finish and quality but to claim is a coastal boat, hell nooo... it have some flaws and things easy to fix, the rudder post is one, but is a easy fix, rigging is another área easy to upgrade ,
Hull scantlings no idea but i guess is the clasic 10 mm beneteau single skin... i will say with few upgrades and modifications you can have a nice boat for the Price, im not sure if is balsa core below waterline but my 2 cents is single sking with the grid liner on top..
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Old 11-01-2015, 19:10   #87
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Another Bene with broken rudder bits

I have some experience with rudder tubes failing inside a boat , a delivery through a bad ( very bad ) storm and the rudder tube split , turns out there was " previous damage " from a grounding

I know very few modern fin keeled boats whose rudder can take any type of grounding damage or are designed to take any weight from the boat onto the bottom , in fact with the strength of modern construction , it can cause an immense lever moment in the hull, damaging the tube supports.

My view is that any grounding affecting the rudder should be cause for careful inspection inside and outside the boat.

In the UK the only boats sitting on any hard at low tide are bilge keelers , and you will see that the rudder is above the bottom of the keel.

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Old 11-01-2015, 19:23   #88
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Years ago Dashew talked about this very thing and criticised the way new boats built their rudders, it was his feeling that spade rudders should be built to be able to take more than they do.
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Old 11-01-2015, 22:21   #89
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Looks like it may be a design fault:

RUDDER POST RECALL/MODIFICATIONS TO 40 & 43 - SeaKnots


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Old 11-01-2015, 23:14   #90
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

Had a similar problem with a Bene 43 centre cockpit enroute from Panama to Tahiti. Graunching sounds turned out to be the fact that the rudder tube was glassed to the rear bulkhead without any mechanical fastening and had delaminated off the bulkhead - end result? the rudder tube was 'walking' across the lazarette and would have eventually snapped off at the hull through join. Quick fix was to set up spanish windlasses each side of the tube fastening it to the more solid auto pilot assembly. This restricted sideways movement, we then put the emergency steering rod into the hexed top of the rudder stock which restricted fore and aft movement. This lasted from just west of the Galapagos to Tahiti where more solid mechanical fasteners were fabricated and fitted. Guess I'm not the biggest Bene fan in the world!
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