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Old 12-10-2016, 22:10   #16
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by icedog11 View Post
skipped it, I was there Sunday, and there was a line all day long to board. I thought they went under.
I think you're thinking of Gunboat (catamarans) - who filed for bankruptcy last November and was bought at auction last May by GL Yachting - vice Gunfleet (monohulls) - which was started by Richard Mathews after his non-compete from Oyster had expired.

Gunfleet had sent me an email to view their 58, but I was unable to attend.
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Old 12-10-2016, 22:40   #17
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by Hobiehobie View Post
The outbound is a great boat and the hard dodger looks great. One of the best integrated designs for a herd top I have seen,akin to halberg rassy. We were tempted to pull the trigger on an outbound but decided to go bigger and ended up with a hylas 54 last year. Never a regret. But if you are looking in the mid forties range an Outbound is a sweet boat unless you can afford a Rustler....which looking at the exchange rate could be a deal!!!
Too late now, but Outbound has a brochure up on their website for an aft cockpit version of their 52 (which was originally center cockpit only). The interior is basically the same as the 46 just upsized, and it includes the hard dodger. I have no idea if anyone's ordered one yet.
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Old 13-10-2016, 05:00   #18
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Bavaria was sold to DuFour. Not sure what that means in the US. ...
What do you mean by that? Where do you heard such thing?

Some years ago Bavaria bought Dufour but they are now independent again. Anyway Dufour is very small compared with Bavaria.

http://www.actunautique.com/article-...120258571.html
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Old 13-10-2016, 05:27   #19
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
...

My random thoughts:


Dufours are frustrating. They have an excellent layout and galley placement. Most of their Grand Large models now have a small BBQ grill, sink, and cutting board built into the transom (perfect for cleaning and grilling fresh fish), tucked away while sailing. But the quality of the cabinetry and finishings were rather poor. Some seats/doors etc didn't quite line up properly. I know that's all superficial, can be fixed, and has nothing to do with seaworthiness. But when the interior cabinetry is off, it gives you less confidence in the quality of everything else.

Jeanneau was just the opposite. I was impressed with the quality, but the layouts were bland. Everything felt tight and solid. This was in contrast to last years show, where I noticed lights were loose, the headliners were uneven, etc. Either that was a fluke, or they have really tightened things up. The DS 44 has a table that folds over the toilet, and it feels as solid as a rock.

For the last 3 days of the show, Bavaria stopped allowing people onboard their monohulls. Maybe they were sold? Even if they were sold, don't you still keep displaying them, especially that early in the show?

Both Dehler and Hanse quality was good. Unlike other builders, I like how the handhold rim around the edges of their galley tops was the same Corian material as the galley surface. Everyone else puts a wooden rim around it. I think those wooden rims will look very old-fashioned in the future, and they wear down much faster. I was very impressed with the ventilation in the Dehler, although they only had the 34 on display.

Wauquiez was strange. I have wanted to see one for so long, but there are hardly any in the US. So I was definitely interested to see their 48 on display. But above the steps to the boat was a sign saying "do not enter - by order of US Marshals". WTF?? There was a french guy on board who said sorry, but due to a lawsuit they aren't allowed to let people come aboard. Someone else at the show told me it was a dispute over ownership of that display yacht.

Elan Yachts were there, for the first time in 10 years, they said. I was impressed with the Elan Impression 45. It's a boat I didn't think much of when looking at it online, but it's one of those boats that impresses you much more when you actually see it.
....
Anyway, that is just my 2 cents and then some...
Being in many major (and smaller boat shows) I can tell you that if the boat is presented not by the main house but by a dealer the finish of the boat depends much on the way that particular boat was prepared for the boat show. Many things depend on adjustments that are made by the dealer on the furniture and also many boats are finished in a hurry to be at a given boat show. I have seen the same model looking bad on a boat show, because the boat was badly prepared (adjusted) and well on another show.

That story about the number of boats that you could not visit is just weird (all Bavaria and the Wauquiez) and I never saw it happen. It seems very amateurish to me.

You talk only about the boat interiors but if you took a look at the size of winches, hardware, at the technicall files of the boats and have a look at the boat structure you are going to see that Dehler or Wauquiez have a superior built quality and built materials and techniques, that a Bavaria or a Hanse have hulls built in a very different way than a Dufour, Jeanneau or Beneteau (these use contre moule techniques). You talk about solid can be a bit misleading since you are referring to the furniture, not to the boat itself.

Not criticizing, just adding some comments. In fact I am happy you have posted since not many are talking about new boats.
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Old 13-10-2016, 07:36   #20
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by thrill View Post
I think you're thinking of Gunboat (catamarans) - who filed for bankruptcy last November and was bought at auction last May by GL Yachting - vice Gunfleet (monohulls) - which was started by Richard Mathews after his non-compete from Oyster had expired.

Gunfleet had sent me an email to view their 58, but I was unable to attend.
you are correct.
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Old 13-10-2016, 12:01   #21
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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I would have been interested to hear your thoughts about Beneteau, but to me that was the only brand conspicuous by its absence in your writing. Any reason? (yes we have one, and are happy for what we paid, but yes, there are always better .....).

I didn't look at Beneteaus this year, and concentrated elsewhere. Partly because they don't have a boat I want in the 41-48 range. The new Oceanis 41.1 changed the transom, which had been the best feature of the Oceanis series. I know they did it for a significant savings in weight, but still not a fan. The 45 is good overall, but the panel controls are on the starboard side, with the nav station on the port side (european boats are already trying to make nav stations slowly disappear, but that only adds insult to injury). I love the 48 especially the stunning owners cabin, but the mast height of 70' is too tall for the ICW. You can order them with a 62' mast instead, but I worry that would make the boat too slow. (Someone can give me an opinion on that?)



Quote:
We have yet to visit USA, but when we do, we will be sure to be there when we can see a boat show. I understood Annapolis was the biggest and best of them. Is that correct?
Thanks,
David
I don't know if it's the best, but it is the biggest. There is also a Spring sailboat show in Annapolis, which is about 3/4s as big as the fall show. And the town of Annapolis is a great place to visit.
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Old 13-10-2016, 12:27   #22
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You talk only about the boat interiors but if you took a look at the size of winches, hardware, at the technicall files of the boats and have a look at the boat structure you are going to see that Dehler or Wauquiez have a superior built quality and built materials and techniques, that a Bavaria or a Hanse have hulls built in a very different way than a Dufour, Jeanneau or Beneteau (these use contre moule techniques). You talk about solid can be a bit misleading since you are referring to the furniture, not to the boat itself.
Oh, I agree completely! That's why I said: "I know that's all superficial, can be fixed, and has nothing to do with seaworthiness. But when the interior cabinetry is off, it gives you less confidence in the quality of everything else."

Unfortunately, I can't really look at the structural soundness of the boat, although I like to tug on winches and things to make sure they are solid.

When I look at the solid furniture of a boat like Hallberg-Rassy, I can't help but wonder the other way around - am I being fooled by the solid furniture when for all I know the boat isn't built much differently than the mass production boats? Would I be paying a lot of money just to add the extra weight of all that real wood? I have a feeling I'm going to have "buyer's remorse" no matter what boat I end up with.

A few more random thoughts I should have added:

The new Hallberg-Rassy 40 inched slowly into the modern age by adding two seated-height salon windows, which it desperately needed. Other than that, it looks very much like any HR made over the last 20 years. That will be a good thing to some, I'm sure. It's a bit old-fashined for my taste. I can't help but wonder - why are all new boats either totally traditional, or Ikea modern?? Why not something in between?

I am considering a new boat because I love the idea of ordering it to my own specs. Hanse/Dehler are good for this - they have the most options I've seen anywhere, even more than most high end boats I think.

On the third day of the show, it was pouring rain, so I took my socks off and walked in bare feet on the boats. That REALLY reminded me of something I forgotten, how many sharp hazards there are on deck. Edges of stanchions, cleats, etc. I remember on the Catalinas, the jib tracks were right along the deck, with almost razor sharp edges - ouch!! Not fun for bare feet. The Jeanneaus were pretty good for my feet though. Just something else to consider.

Someone mentioned Southerly. I was surprised to see them at the show because I thought they went out of business. The dealer onboard told me that they were taken over by NorthSail, and that due to UK labor laws, they scaled down production but are still building. Southerlys are fantastic with the swing keels and probably point very well but are heavy as hell.
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Old 13-10-2016, 16:03   #23
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
I didn't look at Beneteaus this year, and concentrated elsewhere. Partly because they don't have a boat I want in the 41-48 range. The new Oceanis 41.1 changed the transom, which had been the best feature of the Oceanis series. I know they did it for a significant savings in weight, but still not a fan. The 45 is good overall, but the panel controls are on the starboard side, with the nav station on the port side (european boats are already trying to make nav stations slowly disappear, but that only adds insult to injury). I love the 48 especially the stunning owners cabin, but the mast height of 70' is too tall for the ICW. You can order them with a 62' mast instead, but I worry that would make the boat too slow. (Someone can give me an opinion on that?)



I don't know if it's the best, but it is the biggest. There is also a Spring sailboat show in Annapolis, which is about 3/4s as big as the fall show. And the town of Annapolis is a great place to visit.
All good - thanks for the further perspective. Yes, if we could take a bit of one, and a bit of another etc, we would have the ideal boat for us - but not for the next person. The big manufacturers are more and more building to suit what they perceive the majority of the market wants, and if the majority of the market is looking for a party boat, or a harbour cruiser, then the rest of us are in trouble, or need to find a lot more money.

Just one example is the drop down transom trend - I can see the appeal, but for me, I much prefer being able to just step down to the lower transom step to get to the water, (and to get out of the water should the unthinkable happen !!!), and they are no use when you are docked stern-to in a marina unless you want to be in a bigger, and often more expensive berth. However, no doubt very nice when anchored in a bay for swimming or for getting in and out of the tender with groceries etc (even if you have now lost significant stowage space with no, or compromised lazarette areas).

As to your comment on the 'Ikea look' (whether or not the quality has been compromised), I have to say that for me, in the brochures etc, some of the newer ones look very swish indeed, and I wonder if our 2012 Oceanis 50 G5 (the first appearance of the targa arch for Beneteau, but the last of the models before fold-down transoms and chines, and nav stations that disappear, and, and), is looking old fashioned, but then when we get back on board we are encompassed by the rich timber work, the white leather, and other things that seemed so nice, and so swish back then .... The trouble with 'modern' is that it is only so for a couple of seasons, whereas 'traditional' will always be so. For us, we have a happy medium between the two, and we just have to accept that more modern, more swish, will always be there to temp.

Enjoy your searching, and savour the experience when you finally decide. Then there is all the customisation - that's almost as much fun, and we hope to hear about that too from you.

David
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Old 13-10-2016, 16:11   #24
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Outbound was there and the dodger looks great.

Not completely sold on the open transom / no bridge deck thing but otherwise my favorite boat at the show.
Not sure of your definition of bridge deck. To me it is the raised area in front of the cockpit that stops water going down the companionway. The Outbound design definitely has a functional bridge deck.

As far as the partially open transom, it is in front of the swimstep, has raised sides and drains the cockpit very quickly.
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Old 14-10-2016, 08:55   #25
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

Bavaria sold to Dufour ? I haven't seen this anywhere in the media. I know Bavaria bought Dufour & Grand Soleil in 2010. Have I got it wrong ?
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Old 14-10-2016, 10:26   #26
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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There were some feds hanging out on the Wauquiez around mid-day Friday.
When I walked by it on Saturday, there were stickers on it saying something like "no trespassing by order of the U.S. Marshal Service" or something to that effect............very curious........
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Old 14-10-2016, 13:55   #27
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

I thought there was a good selection of boats. Everyone could find one thats pretty suitable for them.

I jumped on the traditional styled boats and whilst thinking they had beautiful wood they are just not what I would ever be after.
The Gozzard was a great case in point. Timber beautiful, but you are paying a lot for it and theres huge additional maintinance... Including the brass dolphins and fittings forward (dolphin was polished but even for a boat show they didnt polish the forward brass!). For some folks this is what they want....

For me the less wood the better. More space in side, less maintenance, more livability, less "be careful with that, you'll scratch the woodwork"

The mono that seemed to be the biggest advance was the Beneteau 55. The larger saloon windows in the hull and forward cabin almost makes the living spaces view the outside world as much as a catamaran. And thats the thing i am actuvly looking for after 8 years living on a 39 foot beneteau. I want to look OUTSIDE.
So i am looking at boats that will be second hand in 5 years time. The 42 foo cats and the Beneteau 55 are a similar price, so should be in 5 years too. But a 55 is a much more substantial vessel than a 42. Mono or cat.

As I said, theres plenty of options for everyones desires... Except Island Packets. I would really not be recommending buying a boat thats so teetering on bankrupcy, or whatever is happening to them.
With a company thats still in buisness you can buy the exact replacement parts, though they may cost more than an alternative part. Last month I replaced all my mirrors in the bathrooms and the little clips to hold the mirrors on needed to be replaced. 22 of them. $2 each. No other clip system would be able to use the same holes etc, so buying the replacement parts was important. If your boat building company has gone out of business you're stuffed when it comes to these minor parts. I guess its about how long do you intend to cruise? I have been on the boat 8 years and i can tell you nothing lasts forever in salt water.
If your retirement cruising plans are more than 2 or 3 years really look at how much you can bash your boat about and how easy its gunna be to replace bits, and the hours per year of routine maintenance.
You may want to be a tinkerer now, but when a palm tree beckons, the fish start jumping, and the rest of the gang want sundowners will you be head down ass up in the bilges or Living Life?
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Old 14-10-2016, 21:27   #28
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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Bavaria sold to Dufour ? I haven't seen this anywhere in the media. I know Bavaria bought Dufour & Grand Soleil in 2010. Have I got it wrong ?
You are correct - Bavaria acquired both in 2010.
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Old 15-10-2016, 11:59   #29
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

As an Island Packet 460 owner we were worried when Seaward bought them out as far as replacement parts but since then have been able to assemble a list of suppliers that cover the spectrum of items that may require replacement.

There are 2 IP forums that are very helpful in this regard.
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Old 15-10-2016, 16:15   #30
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Re: Annapolis Saillboat Show (monohull thoughts)

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You are correct - Bavaria acquired both in 2010.

Hello there, new to CF
Actually, Cantiere del Pardo (Grand Soleil) bought Dufour before that, around 2001, and then for acquired by Bavaria in 2010. However in it's trend to re-center its activities in Germany, and because of some losses, Bavaria stopped supporting Cantiere del Pardo which this was forced to sell Dufour (lack of resources) which is now self-owned again since 2013.

http://www.actunautique.com/article-...120258571.html
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