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Old 20-10-2014, 18:22   #31
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

There is no such thing as an entry level new cruising sailboat. For better and worse, manufacturers have basically ceded the entry level to the used market. You can get a lot of used boat for $150K and under so it's hard for manufacturers to even show up to the game in that arena. A truly entry level boat might be something like a Beneteau Oceanis 35 priced at no more than about $75K sailaway, which is a little less than half the current price. Such a boat would sell like hotcakes and put a huge dent in the market for older racer/cruiser designs from the 70s and 80s. But short of something that totally revolutionizes boatbuilding in the way fiberglass did a half century ago, there is no way to achieve this kind of cost cutting in the current paradigm. So for now, new boats are a luxury item, although I expect that to start to change as the last of the boomers hit retirement age in the coming years. The boat manufacturers who survive to sell to generations X, Y, and beyond may be catering to a very different type of buyer.

I also get the impression that a lot of the high-volume monohull builders (I don’t like the production vs. bluewater dichotomy as one could argue any boat not fully custom designed and built is “production”) purposely make their models under about 38 feet very compromised as anything one would want to live aboard or cruise full time or really use for much more than weekending and day sailing. Small bunks, small heads, small galleys, not much tankage, and very little storage. This makes it easy to upsell. I would bet a lot of couples wanting to cruise go into boat shopping thinking about something in the mid to upper 30 foot range and end up buying 10+ feet more. Once you've committed to spend the kind of money a new boat costs, the steps between the models aren't generally a huge cost increase in the overall scheme.
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Old 20-10-2014, 18:32   #32
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

Cruising can be done on an entry level boat. I know a couple who are out cruising the Med for an entire year on their eight year old Hunter 38 which they purchased new. It can be done, and quite comfortably. 'Just need to tote your water and watch your electrical needs.

Not everyone intends to sail across oceans or circumnavigate; for most, just heading out for a few weeks a couple of times a year and getting out for weekends.... is cruising.
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Old 20-10-2014, 20:36   #33
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

Kenomac you're so right about who owns sailboats. Some sailors have little money, some have a lot. But few are really what I'd call the "Rolex" crowd. Sailing is a lot of work. The Rolex crowd like powerboats and yachts.


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Old 20-10-2014, 21:03   #34
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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Kenomac you're so right about who owns sailboats. Some sailors have little money, some have a lot. But few are really what I'd call the "Rolex" crowd. Sailing is a lot of work. The Rolex crowd like powerboats and yachts.
Besides, for those of us who spend most of our time at anchor hanging around in our boxer shorts or birthday suits, wearing a Rolex would look a little too... pretentious.
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Old 20-10-2014, 22:05   #35
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

I disagree on there being no entry level sailboats. The present big production builders all build down to a price. Their marketing is excellent but their product is entry level, in other words you can't build it much cheaper than they are building it. The construction is as light as possible, using the least amount of material, built with internal FG liners and the least expensive interiors. Sail drives and undersized everything else is quite normal. Now having said that, they are doing the right thing as that's what it takes to sell boats today in any sort of volume plus the boats are just fine for their intended purpose. Entry level does not mean something is affordable to the masses it just means for that particular product that its the cheapest product available.
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Old 20-10-2014, 22:06   #36
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

Ken, I appreciate the thread. In the multihull thread there are a lot of reviews and boat comments.

What about the mono crowd. What boats stood out? What disappointed?
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Old 20-10-2014, 22:27   #37
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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Robert,

-------------------------------------------------------

If I had to do it over again, knowing what I know today, we'd probably buy a 50-58ft catamaran, something like a Sunreef or Isara.
Thats interesting Ken. Can you review what you thought of the Isara. Most in the multi thread missed seeing it.

Cheers
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Old 20-10-2014, 23:52   #38
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

There were a lot of cruising boats. Passport, Hylas, Hallberg Rassy, Moody, Outbound, Morris, Oyster, Garcia, Contest, Gunboat, Gozzard, not to mention Tartan and Island Packet. I suppose the larger Hake/Seawards could be a cruiser, but I didn't get a chance to see them.

Bummed I didn't see the Outbound after reading the previous comments. Every time I tried the line was long and I never got back to it.

Highlights of the show for me:
1. Hawk (Van de Stadt 47). Preferred it over Aventura (and it's $500K cheaper). I'd spend a grand to add pressure water and a few pieces of trim and that's it.
2. Aventura (Garcia 45). Much more modern (and complex). Got to chat with the owner a bit on Thurs, which was very cool.
3. Morris 48. Way different class and purpose than the first two. Had very high expectations and they were met.
4. HR 43. Nothing particularly radical. It's just what a fiberglass cruising boat should be. Well executed hard dodger.

And as a bonus: The only sailboat at the powerboat show - Nordhavn 56. Surprised myself by really liking it.
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Old 21-10-2014, 02:22   #39
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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So for now, new boats are a luxury item, although I expect that to start to change as the last of the boomers hit retirement age in the coming years. The boat manufacturers who survive to sell to generations X, Y, and beyond may be catering to a very different type of buyer.
I don't know what effect that will have on the market, but there will always be people of any age who are looking for a new boat, especially novices like my wife and I (we are not baby boomers). We are very mindful of cost, but are leaning toward buying new because of the warranty, and because we can customize a new boat the way we want.

Quote:
I also get the impression that a lot of the high-volume monohull builders (I don’t like the production vs. bluewater dichotomy as one could argue any boat not fully custom designed and built is “production”) purposely make their models under about 38 feet very compromised as anything one would want to live aboard or cruise full time or really use for much more than weekending and day sailing. Small bunks, small heads, small galleys, not much tankage, and very little storage.
I'm confused what you are trying to say here. You can't get around the laws of physics, and a smaller boat simply can't fit everything you want without compromising them in some way. I don't think it's a conspiracy.
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Old 21-10-2014, 02:31   #40
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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And as a bonus: The only sailboat at the powerboat show - Nordhavn 56. Surprised myself by really liking it.
I went to the powerboat show too, just to compare things. The Nordhavn 56 motorsailer was pretty impressive. The owner said it sails surprisingly well and gets about half wind speed in light winds. But the thing weighs 95,000 lbs!!

And with such a high profile and shallow keel, how does it keep from tipping over under a good wind??

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart
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Old 21-10-2014, 04:42   #41
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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I'm confused what you are trying to say here. You can't get around the laws of physics, and a smaller boat simply can't fit everything you want without compromising them in some way. I don't think it's a conspiracy.
I don't disagree with you but there's no reason a 34-38 foot boat can't have a bunk that's truly long and wide enough for two adults, a head with full standing headroom, a galley with reasonable counter space, and a rode locker large enough to accommodate much more than a lunch hook. Yet a lot of boats in that size range lack some or all of these features and my sense is that they're being designed that way in the interest of making the cabins feel "open".
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Old 21-10-2014, 04:45   #42
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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I don't disagree with you but there's no reason a 34-38 foot boat can't have a bunk that's truly long and wide enough for two adults, a head with full standing headroom, a galley with reasonable counter space, and a rode locker large enough to accommodate much more than a lunch hook. Yet a lot of boats in that size range lack some or all of these features and my sense is that they're being designed that way in the interest of making the cabins feel "open".
Agreed!!
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Old 21-10-2014, 06:51   #43
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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Thats interesting Ken. Can you review what you thought of the Isara. Most in the multi thread missed seeing it.

Cheers
The Isara 50 was awesome! Was more like a luxury powerboat with all the amenities and fine wood work. Very solid build, no creaks or popping sounds while walking the decks or interior. Teak decks and a real teak interior floor unlike the other catamarans which all seemed to have plastic laminate floors that were very slippery. Even the fridge was up high at eye level.

Basically, it was just like the company video and priced about the same as a similar size Lagoon. But one area that really stood out is the visibility from the flybridge deck helm. I could self dock the Isara if I wanted, because there is good visibility all around... and the boom was up high enough so as not to be a danger. No ducking required.

A very solid, well thought out design.

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Old 21-10-2014, 07:10   #44
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

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Ken, I appreciate the thread. In the multihull thread there are a lot of reviews and boat comments.

What about the mono crowd. What boats stood out? What disappointed?
After spending the better part of the past five years living aboard our Hunter and now our Oyster, we look for different things than probably most lookers. Handholds, ergonomic design, being able to walk the decks without stubbing (breaking) you toes or foot and not ducking or creeping around like we're on a playground jungle gym are most important to us, plus a galley that allows us to brace ourselves while preparing food at anchor.

So with that in mind, Passport disappointed because of the foot breaking, pointed stainless steel blocks along the deck among other things. Another item that the two of us just can't understand, is why Hylas and Island Packet put the galley sink and food preparation area at the dirtiest location on the boat... almost directly under the companionway open steps. A puzzlement? For a 47ft yacht, the Morris was more like a 47ft luxury jungle gym, exterior lines everywhere and lots of ducking and squirming to get into the very small, cramped cockpit. And priced at 1.4 million dollars... it only had lazy jacks for the main and no hydraulic furling for the jibs. The galvanized Rocna on the bow just didn't look right for the price. Our 1998 Hunter 450 was easier and offered much more room overall in the interior and exterior; and priced at almost 1.25 million less.

Tartan had several designs in attendance, although in todays market, I realistically can't see many buyers actually buying into the dated designs. On a 47ft boat, who wants to climb over a wide companionway rise every time to then climb down into the saloon? With all the tradition and woodwork, they're obviously after an older buyer... but how does an older buyer get into the thing?

For traditional designs, we really liked the Hallberg Rassey and Gozzard. 'Nuff said.

The Oyster 625 and the Gunfleet 58 were standouts, everything well thought out, light and ergonomic, head and shoulders above the rest. Discovery had a beautiful 55 on the dock, but it would have been nice to tour one of their newer designs. Regarding the other European makers, please see my first post.
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Old 21-10-2014, 07:53   #45
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat Show Review

Kenomac and all thanks for the reviews. Nice to hear the thoughts on the lastest designs out there.
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