Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-10-2012, 21:06   #76
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
No argument at all. I was just addressing the ability of a new gen anchor to reset.
Agreed. Personally, I'm all about Rocna as a primary anchor, with Fortress/Guardian anchors as my storm and kedge anchors.

My concern is about a trend I've seen in the past few years on this forum and others that contends that no anchor is too big. (And I realize, Skipmac, that this is not your position.)

It's too easy, on these forums, to claim that a Bristol 24 needs a 45' CQR and 300' of 3/8" chain. Sheesh! Why not double that?

I have a 15-ton boat that anchors out at least 50 nights per year, often significantly more. I hang on a 55# (25 kilo) Rocna, and have never dragged. If my math is right, a 22# anchor should suffice for a Bristol 24. When I check out the Rocna recommendation chart, that's one step up from the smallest of their anchors they would recommend.

On a boat without a windlass, there's going to be a HUGE difference between trying to raise a 22# anchor than a 45# anchor, especially with any amount of chain attached.
__________________

__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 21:26   #77
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,389
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Agreed. Personally, I'm all about Rocna as a primary anchor, with Fortress/Guardian anchors as my storm and kedge anchors.

My concern is about a trend I've seen in the past few years on this forum and others that contends that no anchor is too big. (And I realize, Skipmac, that this is not your position.)

It's too easy, on these forums, to claim that a Bristol 24 needs a 45' CQR and 300' of 3/8" chain. Sheesh! Why not double that?

I have a 15-ton boat that anchors out at least 50 nights per year, often significantly more. I hang on a 55# (25 kilo) Rocna, and have never dragged. If my math is right, a 22# anchor should suffice for a Bristol 24. When I check out the Rocna recommendation chart, that's one step up from the smallest of their anchors they would recommend.

On a boat without a windlass, there's going to be a HUGE difference between trying to raise a 22# anchor than a 45# anchor, especially with any amount of chain attached.
Wish I had bought the 55 lb Rocna but found the 44 New Zealand made original on sale so grabbed it. Probably is enough for most of the time but with the 55 I would sleep better. Now with all the brouhaha about the steel quality think I will stay away from a new Rocna, unless you want to get rid of yours.

Also have a Fortress 37, the 45 lbs CQR that came with the boat and just got a 65 lb Mantus that I will keep disassembled in the bilge for a storm anchor.

I think that may be enough for a while.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 23:30   #78
Registered User
 
stevensuf's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Back in Scotland!
Boat: Gib sea 43
Posts: 840
Images: 10
Re: Anchoring Advice?

One of the best things you can do at anchor, is get one of those ipads/clones/smart phone with a gps in it and download an anchor alarm program, so you are alerted if you drag, some can even text message you if the boat drags and you are away from it.
__________________
http://nicnsteve.blogspot.com/

If the pen is mightier than the sword, then my keyboard must be a nuclear missile!
stevensuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 01:24   #79
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That's valuable info, but let's remember that the OP sails a Bristol 24 that displaces less than three tons. Let's also remember that he will not be working with a windlass, or anchoring in a hurricane zone, or....
Anchoring gear and technique does not scale up or down very well. The way large ships anchor is really totally different from the way we do it, for example.

I have never anchored such a small boat, without a windlass. I think the gear and technique is quite different from what we do.

So I, personally, would not venture to give advice, where I believe myself to be clueless, and I would advise the OP to take with a grain of salt advice from people without relevant experience.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 03:53   #80
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Here's a practical piece of advice. Buy a snubber hook and tie it on the end of a longish piece of rope. When you have to pull your anchor - you should ensure that you are able to bring the rope part of your rode back to a winch (say your main halyard winch). Now you can pull your anchor with a winch (easier on your back and your wife can also do it). When you get to the chain part, lean as far out over the bow of the boat as you can, hook the snubber hook on the chain and now use this on the winch. You'll have to do this several times, but in a pinch, it means you can use your winch to get the entire length of rode up.

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 06:56   #81
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,061
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post

It's too easy, on these forums, to claim that a Bristol 24 needs a 45' CQR and 300' of 3/8" chain. Sheesh! Why not double that?
I think the question becomes how does your anchor re-set? If it is not a good "re-setter" then it is basically a dead weight mooring on the bottom, if it did not re-set. Is a 45 pound dead weight mooring big enough for a B-24? Maybe?

This guy had a big poor re-setting anchor that was fine until the wind shifted directions. He then he nearly smashed into us and wound up on the rocks. Slapping against the hull finally brought him topside in his PJ's to see that he was inches from keel & rudder grinding granite.

The all chain rode and technically "over-sized", by the charts, anchor was not a big enough dead weight to prevent it from dragging nearly 1/8 mile. I barely got our inflatable, and his, in-between the two boats to use as a fender before the near collision.


Here's the plot..


In Maine we almost always wake to a 360 degree cookie trail on the GPS. Some anchors re-set better than others and when an anchor does not re-set it essentially becomes a dead weight mooring or 45 pound cinder block......

I do agree that a 45 pound anchor is over kill but the type of anchor can often play a role too so a 45 pounder of one brand may not be too big, while a 45 pounder from another brand would hold that boat to 120 knots and be overkill...

Even with good technique and a perfect set some anchors un-set with 360 degree swings and if they took two or three tries to set the first time what are the odds it will re-set on its own, while you are asleep..?

Food for thought anyway...
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 08:52   #82
Registered User
 
Muscongus's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Maine
Boat: Bristol 24
Posts: 101
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
One of the best things you can do at anchor, is get one of those ipads/clones/smart phone with a gps in it and download an anchor alarm program, so you are alerted if you drag, some can even text message you if the boat drags and you are away from it.
I downloaded an app for my phone - thanks for the advice!
__________________
Muscongus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 09:05   #83
Registered User
 
Muscongus's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Maine
Boat: Bristol 24
Posts: 101
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I think the question becomes how does your anchor re-set? If it is not a good "re-setter" then it is basically a dead weight mooring on the bottom, if it did not re-set. Is a 45 pound dead weight mooring big enough for a B-24? Maybe?

This guy had a big poor re-setting anchor that was fine until the wind shifted directions. He then he nearly smashed into us and wound up on the rocks. Slapping against the hull finally brought him topside in his PJ's to see that he was inches from keel & rudder grinding granite.

The all chain rode and technically "over-sized", by the charts, anchor was not a big enough dead weight to prevent it from dragging nearly 1/8 mile. I barely got our inflatable, and his, in-between the two boats to use as a fender before the near collision.


Here's the plot..


In Maine we almost always wake to a 360 degree cookie trail on the GPS. Some anchors re-set better than others and when an anchor does not re-set it essentially becomes a dead weight mooring or 45 pound cinder block......

I do agree that a 45 pound anchor is over kill but the type of anchor can often play a role too so a 45 pounder of one brand may not be too big, while a 45 pounder from another brand would hold that boat to 120 knots and be overkill...

Even with good technique and a perfect set some anchors un-set with 360 degree swings and if they took two or three tries to set the first time what are the odds it will re-set on its own, while you are asleep..?

Food for thought anyway...
WOW! That plot is scary stuff! In our little anchoring adventure, we were in essentially the same spot in the morning - just extremely nervous in the middle of the night when the tide shifted and were were rocking like mad.

I feel like we were very fortunate (after reading all the great advice given in this thread) that we didn't end up lifting that anchor off the bottom and drifting into the ledges. It does seem that the CQR is popular here in Maine and that the 45#'er would be way too much for my wife to haul up if she needed to - and a lot for me to haul up, too, especially while trying to enjoy my time instead of struggling during it.

One of these days I'll need to pick up a chart plotter, too! I thin a proper anchor is a bit more of a priority, though.

Thanks for sharing that info and the photos!
__________________
Muscongus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 11:46   #84
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscongus View Post
WOW! That plot is scary stuff!...................
I think that Maine Sail's view of the trail at anchor shows a secure position instead of "scary stuff". Leaving a track like Maine Sail's is a great method to keep track of your anchors performance. The "scary stuff" is when you see the evience of the drag.....



Above you see a well established arc laid down in a stiff wind and then a repositioning after an anchor dragging and then forming a new arc. I always leave my GPS on and laying a track while I'm at anchor.
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 11:48   #85
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: Anchoring Advice?

I think in most cases, when current changes or light air shifts at night, the anchor just stays as it was....even if backwards! The test of resetting is when the anchor is plucked from the seabed by a strong (180+/-) wind gust/shift flipping it over, and is then dragging along the bottom (upside down!). Then the question is: will it reset? I havent seen any that will, but am hoping the new models will.
I have snorkeled my anchor extensively in the Caribe, one thing that surprised me a lot was in quite strong winds with no chop on the water (no fetch) even at 25+, the chain still had a good catenary in it and the anchor wasnt seing a full load.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 12:02   #86
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,389
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Some good reading:

Anchoring 101 Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) Ground Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & SwivelsGround Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & Swivels

Newer generation anchors ARE better. The "venerable" CQR is like dropping a big rock compared to the new ones. We use a Pre-Chinese Rocna, the Manson Supreme is now a better choice given the Rocna debacle.

Your 45# CQR would work except for all the BIG reasons mentioned. Use the system sizing tables to figure out what you really need. Stop guessing.

Good luck.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 12:03   #87
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Circles around the anchor are not a problem. Here is another photo of the plot from a dragging anchor.

It's tracks like this you don't want to see. At the bottom of the picture you can see the normal arc followed by a drag then a pause followed by another drag.

This was the wind instrument at the time.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0856.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	58.7 KB
ID:	48160   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0854.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	56.6 KB
ID:	48161  

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 13:20   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: here and there
Boat: P30
Posts: 199
Re: Anchoring Advice?

I'll add a bit of cautionary advice here.
last September i rode out 3 days of bad weather on anchor. this was in the middle of a two week trip in the eastern reaches of LIS. Understood the forecast for a increase in wind and a shift to the NE and anchored accordingly (no lee shore). At 0200 it hit. I immediately woke and went on deck to let out more scope - which i should have done before. At 5 tons - i'm certainly not the biggest boat here-- add 35-40 knots of wind and it demands you are prepared to uncleat an anchor line with all of the force acting on it.
It's moments like this when things became very clear....
Keep your fingers out of harms way.- mine almost got jammed between the line and the cleat. not a good thing in the middle of the night, in bad weather, on a boat - when the bad stuff hits. Or anytime for that matter. Lesson learned...
Find a way to "brake" the line before releasing. with another cleat, stanchion? etc.
(friction is your friend)
Make sure your bow cleats are up to the task - backing plates etc.
Let out scope before you need it - same as reefing.

the advice to keep a gps, anchor alarm, charplotter, etc. running is a good one. I keep the plotter and my smartphone running. But nothing substitutes for a visual conformation of your position. GPS signals go down all the time and if you don't know where you were - you likely won't know where you are.

Be prepared: keep the engine at the ready. when the going gets rough (anchor out enough and it will) consider keeping the engine in forward gear with just enough throttle to ease the tension on the anchor - no headway- until the winds subside or you are certain you are not moving anywhere. I don't know if this is an orthodox method but I've done it with good results.

Make sure a second anchor is ready.

When setting off: prep the dinghy - you absolutely do not want the boat to drift back over the painter and foul a prop........don't ask.

oh yeah: being on deck in the middle of the night in sheets of cold rain and blowing wind - without a pfd... and naked is just not fun. ;~)
__________________
S/V Voyager
smaarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 13:37   #89
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Anchoring Advice?

I agree with most of what you say, but this had me puzzled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smaarch View Post
GPS signals go down all the time and if you don't know where you were - you likely won't know where you are.
The GPS should not go down often, if at all, unless you have a fault in your unit. Our GPS is on 24 hours a day 300+ days a year and there has not been a single drop out in the 5 years I have been full time cruising.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 13:52   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: here and there
Boat: P30
Posts: 199
Re: Anchoring Advice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I agree with most of what you say, but this had me puzzled.



The GPS should not go down often, if at all, unless you have a fault in your unit. Our GPS is on 24 hours a day 300+ days a year and there has not been a single drop out in the 5 years I have been full time cruising.

Nothing wrong with our unit that i'm aware of. I run both a handheld and a chartplotter. one goes, they both go and have had signal drops on a number of occasions . of course it always seems to be when i need it most.
I've become a firm believer in plotting position on paper.........but that's a different subject......

Edit: often is incorrect - occasionally is more accurate
__________________

__________________
S/V Voyager
smaarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, anchoring

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.