Americas Cup Foiling AC75 concept

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Lanevdl

I think you'll find they'll be the same. Yachts do tack!

I'm sure they'll have one dedicated crewmember who will crawl out onto the upwind foil and cover it with some nice day-glo orange neoprene socks to make them more visible and prevent any harm coming to the opposing boat and crew.

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by Polux

I said that there was designs made that way and that was not the only one. The fact that it was not a successful racer takes nothing to what I said. I can understand quite well why such a design would be very tricky to sail and prone to capsizing.

I didn't mean to take anything away from what you said, but merely to add some more and relevant information. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

[barnakiel]

I will disagree on badminton. I have read it is one of the most injury causing sports ever.

Sailing, even extreme sailing, seems very safe. Just think of mountain biking or skiing, for comparison.

Cheers,
b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

I didn't mean to take anything away from what you said, but merely to add some more and relevant information. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Sorry, it seems I misunderstood you.

That system (keel and ballast out of the water) has a problem if it is played only with one keel. It maximizes righting moment but because the ballast is doing its max effect when the boat is sailing almost without heeling (with the keel out of water) when the boat is hit by a strong gust there is almost no reserve stability.

As you know on the typical monohull the max RM happens between 50 and 70 degrees of heel depending on the design, while the boat sails with no more than 30º of heel.

This give to the boat a big reserve stability that came very handy on gusts. The boat heels the sail is depowered and the RM increases.

With that type of keel when the boat heels suddenly with a gust the RM decreases, unless it is a very beamy boat with a huge form stability that can compensate the loss of efficiency of the ballast.

With two ballasted keels things can be played differently in what regards this problem.

[Pegu Club]

A question for you tech oriented guys here,

Can these foiling monos bash thru waves like the VOR boats, or are they to fragile to do that type of sailing / racing?

From what I gathered the foiling cats can not deal with the type of conditions that the VOR boats regularly sail in. I'm guessing it's the same for the foiling monos as well.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[Polux]

These ones nobody know because they are not yet made but the same was said regarding the use of foils that create a huge lift on ocean conditions and yes very rapidly they passed from the America's cup to offshore ocean racers and they are now starting to be used on the first fast cruisers (just beginning).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPEuw25CUfc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3on5CYbZP4&t=5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIw3JDN2G3I

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

A question for you tech oriented guys here,

Can these foiling monos bash thru waves like the VOR boats, or are they to fragile to do that type of sailing / racing?

From what I gathered the foiling cats can not deal with the type of conditions that the VOR boats regularly sail in. I'm guessing it's the same for the foiling monos as well.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

The foiling monos like the shorthanded boats don't lift their hulls out of the water like the AC cats do. The semi-foiling monos can sail through the Southern Ocean at great speed, although they do suffer significantly from foil breakage.

There's only a couple of fully-foiling monos. One just did the Mini Transat but rarely if ever foiled properly and was beaten. Some others race on European lakes, but I've looked at all the results for them I can find and they appear to win only rarely.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

The foiling monos like the shorthanded boats don't lift their hulls out of the water like the AC cats do. The semi-foiling monos can sail through the Southern Ocean at great speed, although they do suffer significantly from foil breakage.
...

I would say that the breakage is not significant. Not more problems with that then for instance with broken rudders and in most cases the breakage had to do with contacts with submerged objects or animals. If it was significant the breakage the boat that won the last vendee would not had finished the circumnavigation. Severall boats finished the circumnavigation without any problems on the foils.

Any new system has a time to perfect and to make breakage acceptable. I think the foils on offshore racing boats have reached that point already. On the last transat, the Jacques Favre, a long one between France and Brazil, there were several boats with foils, multihulls and monohulls and that I recall none had broken any foil even if several boats have retired for other reasons.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

The foiling monos like the shorthanded boats don't lift their hulls out of the water like the AC cats do. The semi-foiling monos can sail through the Southern Ocean at great speed, although they do suffer significantly from foil breakage.

There's only a couple of fully-foiling monos. One just did the Mini Transat but rarely if ever foiled properly and was beaten. Some others race on European lakes, but I've looked at all the results for them I can find and they appear to win only rarely.

Okay,

It seems that they are still mostly in an experimental stage, with some boats having some success. Looks like its a race boat or very rich guy/gal toy at this point.

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by Polux

I would say that the breakage is not significant. Not more problems with that then for instance with broken rudders and in most cases the breakage had to do with contacts with submerged objects or animals. If it was significant the breakage the boat that won the last vendee would not had finished the circumnavigation. Severall boats finished the circumnavigation without any problems on the foils.

Any new system has a time to perfect and to make breakage acceptable. I think the foils on offshore racing boats have reached that point already. On the last transat, the Jacques Favre, a long one between France and Brazil, there were several boats with foils, multihulls and monohulls and that I recall none had broken any foil even if several boats have retired for other reasons.

There's still a lot of concern in some quarters, because the breakages are not just the foils but also the other parts of the boat that are stressed by the extra loads;

"Foil control systems are needed" warns Vendée Globe sailor Seb Josse

They don't sound fun to sail in many ways;

A close-up look at Alex Thomson's Vendée Globe racer Hugo Boss

I've never sailed an Open 60 foiler or canter, just raced an old water ballasted boat once. Quite fun reaching, but as with the modern AC boats not really suitable to the normal sailing that people, even keen high-level racers, do.

[Pegu Club]

I hope to see a spectacle in an AC race, with very many boats lining up at the same time, Vying for a great start and an aggressive race of a minimum of fifty miles of balls out racing. jmo of course.

That is something I would watch repeatedly, all winter long.

[rgleason]

I do agree with

[rgleason]

I agree with Barb

[rgleason]

Whoops, I agree with Barnakiel about the length. and think it should be 50-60'

[jtsailjt]

I like to see the technological advances applied to sailing but also worry the
AC is getting pretty far removed from the sailing we all do. Personally, I'd prefer to see traditional monohulls because I'd carefully watch their tactics, sail trimming, crew coordination, etc. but as a sailor, with these foiling mono's using mechanically moving foils and traveling at speeds many times higher than any displacement boat can travel, I don't know that there's going to be much going on that I can really comprehend or apply to my own sailing. However, I understand the financial need to appeal to a wider audience and I do expect that it'll be tremendously exciting just like the foiling cats in SF were. I was mesmerized by that. But I worry that the "excitement" might get carried a bit too far, especially when the first crash happens and we see sailors bodies flung high in the air or crushed in a collision. Just like NASCAR, part of the appeal will be the chance that you'll see someone die in a spectacular crash. It's a tried and true way to attract a wide audience who like excitement but don't necessarily care or know much about sailing, but I'd prefer to see a more traditional sailing competition.

I used to occasionally enjoy watching boxing matches but that all changed decades ago when I saw Boom Boom Mancini be allowed to literally kill his opponent in the ring. Now, decades later, I can't see a boxing match without the memory of his opponent twitching on the canvas after being pummeled throughout the match.


High speeds and danger in any form are exciting to the masses but there's a fine line between creating an exciting spectacle and a sickening tragedy.