Amel or Island Packet?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by REsCat

and @ Eleuthra 2014 ^
Sailing into 2 meter steep (square waves) is not friendly to or comfortable in any typical cruising boat talked about on this forum,
mono or multi makes no difference.
An Amel 53 or whatever your sailing is NOT immune to those conditions.

Bob

Bob,

Look what I found in our video collection, our Oyster 53 motoring directly into a steady 30 knot breeze with 2-3 meter swells. Mostly 2 meter steep, frequent swells with the occasional 3 meter swell like at the end of the video.

My wife looks kinda.... comfortable in those conditions.

I'm not looking for an argument, I think a multihull would also make an excellent liveaboard choice for the OP or anyone else. And yes, we did sail for the previous 8 hours, but when the wind changed as expected, we wanted to get to Sardinia before 3am, so we motored.

I think having a center cockpit helps quite a bit to even out the motion. Kinda like sitting in the middle of a titter totter.

Ken

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bYLGFakWjQ

[Kenomac]

Bob and Robert,

Honest question: Does this video demonstrate what is meant when catamarans experience "pounding?" I honestly don't know what that means. If it doesn't, can you please dig up something on YouTube which does.

The cat seems to sailing in similar conditions as our Oyster. Similar waves.

Thanks

Ken

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4592GANwvXc

[robert sailor]

It's different Ken, on monos it's the hulls that slam but that only effects the newer designs with flat forward sections. On a Cat it's the waves hitting the bridge deck and it sounds like a small bomb just went off so two completely different experiences. Your Oyster's underwater profile is pretty forgiving when you are sailing upwind. My old Tartan 44 would sail upwind better than many boats and it never slammed, just a whoosh. The Moody is still pretty gentle upwind but it isn't as soft a ride as the old Tartan.

[Kenomac]

How about this? Does this video demonstrate pounding?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xSwHGr9oKY

[DDabs]

but the Amel.......and oh wait the Island Packet.....but the pounding....and oh god what is even going on in this thread? I feel like i'm in a cat in the med!

[Kenomac]

This is the video I meant to post. Does this demonstrate what some people like Robert describe as "pounding?" 'Looking for a serious answer please.

Bob already explained to me that the height of the bridge deck makes a big difference. The Lagoons I see around here have very high clearance above the water, so I assume this characteristic is built in to minimize the effect. Correct? And that cats avoid heading directly into these sort of conditions just like monohull owners, in order to avoid the discomfort? Which makes perfect sense.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xSwHGr9oKY

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DDabs

but the Amel.......and oh wait the Island Packet.....but the pounding....and oh god what is even going on in this thread? I feel like i'm in a cat in the med!

Sorted out:

PACKET CAT 35 (ISLAND PACKET) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

While in the Med, jump aboard an abandoned Amel and steal the logo. Stick it on this one and you are done ;-) 3 in 1 ;-)

Cheers,
b.

[kmacdonald]

The cats will kill your kidneys in any headsea at all.

[rourkeh]

Both are good boats compared to most out there. A friend down here did some refit work on a 10 year old IP last year and I was surprised to see they cut a lot of corners in the construction like using staples in the installation of the flooring and a bunch of other similar cheap rubbish. I was very surprised given their price point and reputation.
The Amel is built right from start to finish, they do not cut corners and have some great design ideas built in you do not see on any boat regardless of price.
A little quirky, but hard to find anything built better. Not a fair comparison.

[dangerfield55]

How do the Amels age? What is the lifespan of their electric curlers , refrigeration and dishwashers? What is the replacement costs of those items



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[Eder]

I was going to offer my opinion but I just stepped on another staple & am looking for a bandaid.

[robert sailor]

The Amel is probably the better built boat but I suspect that either would make the planned trip with ease. It really gets down to which one lights your fire.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

How about this? Does this video demonstrate pounding?

Listening carefully, Ken, it sounds more like the pounding that a flat bottomed monohull may do when being motored directly into head seas. A monohull with a flat bottom forward of the keel will do this quite badly, while a monohull with a more rounded or even V shaped sections forward of the keel will hardly pound at all.

Most cats don't do this sort of pounding because their hulls are usually comparatively narrow and rounded forward of their keels, but I think that's what we are hearing, here. What cats do is slam, and that's the sound made when a wave hits not the hulls but the underside of the bridgedeck. It's generally much louder than the sound in the video, but much less frequent. In the video, the sound comes on every wave and every pitch of the bow. I don't know the design of this boat but it is unusual to have a cat slam on every wave, and the waves don't even look that big.

All this said, whether a monohull pounds or a cat slams is often up to the skill and decisions of the helmsman. In either case, heading a bit off the wind changes the motion considerably, as well as the effective distance between wave tops. So, we are faced with the decision whether to drive a sailboat directly into the waves, making it pound or slam, or to drive it into the waves at something more approximating a sailing angle, which is what the boat was designed to do, even while motoring.

In our modern, schedule driven, "how long till we get there" society, (particularly prevalent among holiday making charterers), the decision is often to drive the boat straight upwind, and to motor, since that's what keeps a boat on schedule. The result is endless pounding or slamming and much criticism of the boat and its design. IF, however, we remember that we are in a sailboat, and we sail it, we take the waves at an angle the designer calculated for, and neither monohull nor cat pounds or slams very much at all.

I think that cats get a worse rap because 1) many of those who skipper them may have less experience and patience and 2) the upwind sailing angle of cats is further off the wind, which makes the course longer and less desired, even if it will be traveled at a greater speed and take not much more time.

Using the observations gleaned from having sailed 40 odd different monohull designs, from dinghies to ketches in the mid 50 foot range, and 10 different cats, from a Gemini to a Gunboat, I think you can make just about any monohull pound and any cat slam. Or not. My boat of the past twelve years is a Leopard 45, a design with a reputation for slamming. And if I motor my sailboat as hard as I can, straight into waves, I can make her slam, and slam quite badly, with a much louder crash than we hear in the video. On the other hand, if I choose to sail my sailboat as she was designed to be sailed, I still get there in almost the same time, and she hardly ever slams, at all. If I motor, but head off from dead upwind, the slamming eases off dramatically, as well. So, some of it's the boat, and some of it's the skipper, no matter how many hulls and what type.

The OP asked us to choose between an Amel and an IP. I join those who, for the OP's purposes, suggest that he give some consideration to a cat, which seems to me to be the ideal solution and at least the equal of his two choices, although both of those are good ones. I have lived 19 years aboard a mono, and 11 on a cat, so I have some idea of what to expect on either. And, when it comes to really tough boats, very well designed for ease of maintenance and ability to get at everything and every system, I have yet to see anything better than the early Leopards such as my 45.

Lagoons are known for being somewhat less rugged (not flimsy, though), and I have no idea what happened to the Lagoon that almost broke up, mentioned in a previous post. But, to my knowledge, something like that has never happened to an older Leopard (or a newer one, for that matter), and they have accumulated multiple millions of miles throughout all the oceans.

[Kenomac]

Contrail,

Thanks much for the detailed description of slamming vs pounding.

I'd also recommend the OP add Hallberg Rassey to his list if he decides on sticking with a monohull.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by dangerfield55

How do the Amels age? What is the lifespan of their electric curlers , refrigeration and dishwashers? What is the replacement costs of those items



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Is your question serious?

What are curlers? It is a new term to me.

They age as any other plastic boat does. Given the construction methods similar to Contest, Oyster, HR, Najad, Waquiez, Morris and Valiant, they will age at about similar rate.

It seems that very many of the very early ones are still around. I think they took off in around 1960. I have seen many Mistrals, Kirks and Euroses in good shape.

Appliances age at about the same rate as land based appliances - how hard you use them and how well you maintain plays some role as much probably as initial quality.

Replacement cost of all systems is 1 x their shelf price plus removal / utilisation / installation costs. Installation / removal costs are hourly based. Utilisation costs are policy based.

b.