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Old 22-07-2015, 15:35   #16
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Re: Amazing opportunity for couple with kids, need suggestions

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Before committing to this plan maybe do a trial. Have your friend move in with you in your home for a couple of weeks. Have breakfast, lunch and dinner together every day. Go on all your errands together and generally spend all your time all day in close proximity. Then decide how compatible you will be on a boat.
Great suggestion!

If you don't feel comfortable living with a stranger (non family member) in a house, it will be MUCH harder in a boat.

I think the other suggestion (Get a Catamaran) is also VERY smart too.

Good luck on your boat decision.
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Old 22-07-2015, 19:45   #17
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Re: Amazing opportunity for couple with kids, need suggestions

There are a couple of reasons we can't go now, mostly my mothers failing health due to Parkinsons. She was there for me, I am going to be there for her, simple as that. Two years will be enough time for this unfortunate event to come to an end.

I think that we might charter a cat early spring next year. SWMBO likes the non-heeling idea, though I do consider myself a mono hull guy. (My only cat experiences have been in racing cats, beach cats, sport stuff.) My main reason for not wanting a cat is that a sailboat, for me, is a means to an end. And that end is sailing not getting from place to place slowly. I love sailing, doing it while going somewhere is just a plus! I love the feeling of a rig loading up and the boat heeling into a fresh breeze, the water just tickling the rail, and the look of horror on the faces of first timers! Ah, good times.

Do you get that feeling with a cruising cat? The go to weather like crap right? Are they fun to sail or does it feel like you are driving a Lincoln town car? I hear that they are very easily overloaded and that once you load one down that they are not really a lot faster on a passage than a mono.
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Old 22-07-2015, 21:06   #18
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Re: Amazing opportunity for couple with kids, need suggestions

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Originally Posted by jt_kilroy View Post
There are a couple of reasons we can't go now, mostly my mothers failing health due to Parkinsons. She was there for me, I am going to be there for her, simple as that. Two years will be enough time for this unfortunate event to come to an end.

I think that we might charter a cat early spring next year. SWMBO likes the non-heeling idea, though I do consider myself a mono hull guy. (My only cat experiences have been in racing cats, beach cats, sport stuff.) My main reason for not wanting a cat is that a sailboat, for me, is a means to an end. And that end is sailing not getting from place to place slowly. I love sailing, doing it while going somewhere is just a plus! I love the feeling of a rig loading up and the boat heeling into a fresh breeze, the water just tickling the rail, and the look of horror on the faces of first timers! Ah, good times.

Do you get that feeling with a cruising cat? The go to weather like crap right? Are they fun to sail or does it feel like you are driving a Lincoln town car? I hear that they are very easily overloaded and that once you load one down that they are not really a lot faster on a passage than a mono.
I agree with how you feel about monos, which is why I own one and sail it, extensively. However, let me give you the die hard monohuller opinioin about the cruising cats I have sailed (Leopard and Fountain Pajot) in the context of your questions:

I love the feeling of a rig loading up and the boat heeling into a fresh breeze, the water just tickling the rail. Do you get that feeling with a cruising cat?
No. There is no heeling, so the feeling of zipping along the water isn't there. You do go relatively fast, though. It is easy to get to 8 or 9 knots.

They go to weather like crap right?
No. They go to weather like most production cruising monohulls. I have had the cats 40 degrees off the wind and making VMG without difficulty. They have a large square topped main that drives the boat.

Are they fun to sail or does it feel like you are driving a Lincoln town car?
I find that helming a cat is more intense than a mono because I am always paying attention to wind speed and gusts. Because the Cat does not heel, there is no pressure let off if the wind gets too gusty or strong, and reefing early is necessary. I also find that I pay greater attention to the wave action on the Cat. The intellectual pursuit of sail trim is equally as enjoyable on a Cat, and less work than on a mono because the sheets and winches are right in front of you at the helm.

I hear that they are very easily overloaded and that once you load one down that they are not really a lot faster on a passage than a mono.
The Leopard 47 is 20,000 empty, and 36,000 pounds with water, fuel, humans, gear. I have a family of 5 (Wife, three kids, two dogs, 3 extra kids [friends of the kids]). I have been able to get the average charter cat without a spinnaker to 9, almost 10 knots on a reach in the Chesapeake bay with all of them and their stuff on board. The average Cat will out sail the average monohull on a reach or run. If you add an asym spinnaker, you will see double digits on the knot meter constantly.

If it weren't for the love of sailing a monohull, I would get a cat. The cats are great and I think the pros of the Cats are more than the pros of monos. The thing is, I just love monos, and I love mine, dearly. She is part of the family.

https://youtu.be/Gg2pH4D0pRI

https://youtu.be/Nc-TUvJNh8o

https://youtu.be/womCBpHI93w

I think you are trying to make an objective decision, but you like what you like. My unsolicited advice, empasis on unsolicited is: get the boat you love. You will know it when you walk on her whether she ends up being a mono or multi. I will also say that the Admiral has to love her, too. It will be the Admiral's home, as well. (I apologize in advance for getting off track).

Check out this recent article in Sail Magazine:

One Hull or Two? - Sail Magazine

Ben
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Old 23-07-2015, 08:08   #19
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Re: Amazing opportunity for couple with kids, need suggestions

Hi JT

About a cat vs mono.

I, like you, am pretty much a monohull sailor but have put in a little time on cats. Most recently last year when my daughter and son-in-law chartered a 40' cat in the BVI and I went down to captain for them.

So my comments and opinions based on this background.

Yes it was different than sailing a mono but I still enjoyed it just as much. Sailing level was just fine with me and I didn't miss the heeling at all. However, that doesn't mean that the cat doesn't move around under sail. On certain points of sail and angles of the waves under the hulls it can have, to a monohull sailor, an odd, twisty motion that I didn't love. Close hauled it can have a faster, jerky motion compared to a mono since it lacks the weight of the keel that damps the boats movements.

Not saying these things are better or worse overall than a mono, just different.

Esthetics. I don't love the look of most smaller cats. Like smaller center cockpit monos I think they look a bit boxy. Larger cats to me look a more like a boat. This is of course just my own personal preference.

For your situation a cat would be ideal in the layout and separated accommodations. To get a similar level of privacy in a mono you would need to go a lot bigger. But you do need to think of cost and size in cats vs monos on a sq ft basis and not a length basis.

Hope this is all helpful.
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Old 23-07-2015, 09:23   #20
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Re: Amazing opportunity for couple with kids, need suggestions

We are a family on a cat and this is our 8th month aboard. I've never considered myself a sailor's sailor since I chickened out and bought a cat. if you are dead set against a cat whatever you do do not take SWMBO to a boat show that has Lagoon, FP, or Leopards of any kind. Do that and your fate is sealed.

Our boat is a Lagoon 380. It is 10 years old and we are the 4th owner. It's not the fastest, prettiest, or newest but we decided, as a family, that the boat had to be single-handed capable and nonelectric usable. This restricted us to the 380, 39, 400, etc.

1. Cats do not heel. Pay attention to the rigging. I printed out a guide table, laminated and stuck it to the cockpit window. Cat sailing is sailing by numbers, literally. What to do at 15kts, 30, what to do at 25kts, 110. Now, I listen to the rigging. The noises it makes is all the feedback you need. Each cat is different.

2. It goes to weather within its abilities. These aren't VOR boats. If the wind is 30 the sails are up. I can get decent speed out of that. Our boat is designed by VPLP. They are famous for RTW racers (Route du Rhum, Vendee, etc) and their most iconic boat is the trimaran from Waterworld. I'd like to imagine they knew what they were doing when they designed a cat that could sail a family comfortably.

3. It's a lot more fun for nonsailors than sailors. My rigging is quite conservative. I don't need to do the "hacks" that monos need like a whisker poles, running backstays, or tons of sails. Our equipment is mainsail, genoa, and code 0. This does 100% of what we need. 95% of offshore cats has the exact same equipment. You know what fun is? Coming into an anchorage, manoeuvring between all the monos with deep drafts and dropping anchor yards from the beach. Trim the sails, set the autopilot, and make a cocktail, or go fishing. My son takes his big box of Legos out and plays in the cockpit. He's never heard of heeling.

4. Our forward lockers are filled with sails, rope, and beach gear. It is the only part of the boat I am mindful of as far as weight. Cats are narrow at the front and fat at the back. Some people see that big empty locker and pile all their **** in their. I keep them as empty as feasibly possible.

Another thing. Cats are redundant. A few weeks ago we were sailing out of Malta and I lost an engine. The belt snapped. Without skipping a beat I shut that engine down. Fired up the other and continued motorsailing. After dinner, and when the sun was a little cooler, I went looking for that replacement belt. Owning a cat is literally having an entire spare engine. I don't need to stock loads of spares because I know I can put something together that will work.

Also, sharing a boat is nothing like sharing a home together. In a house you can solve a clogged toilet with a call to a plumber or a trip to the hardware store. On a boat, you have yourself, and the things around you to solve those problems. The real question is, "is this person able to scoop **** out of a clogged toilet with me?" If they can handle that then everything else is gravy.
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