Am I Right to Hate the Idea of a Furling Main: Jeanneau 45DS

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Biggest downside for me is that it is harder to trim well. Without battens it is harder to get a good shape, and because the luff of the sail is in a slot along its whole length, there is a lot of friction and you can't really tune the luff tension with the halyard.

If I could wave a magic wand and switch my boat to a fully battened conventional main at zero cost and trouble, I'm not sure I would do it. I might. Or maybe not. But I definitely would not spend money to do it.

Have a rummage in the archives and you'll find everything you will ever want to know.

I had the same dislike once, but I helped to deliver a 1982 Ted Hood-designed Bristol 45.5 in rough conditions in 2009 and saw some advantages in the rapidity of sail reduction before approaching squalls, and saw the same on a newish Catalina 470 in the 45-60 knot squalls of the Lake Ontario 300 race last year.

I conclude that "in mast furling has its place". It's a compromise for cruisers and short-handers, often the same people.

Coming from a "hank on" orientation (I didn't have even a forestay furler until we bought a steel cutter), I still prefer a battened, reefable from below main, partly because I see it as more bulletproof, and partly because with a heavy displacement boat with a longer boom and shorter mast, I need all the performance I can get, and that means a main that can be tensioned flat and presents a nice draft via battens.

I haven't read to the end of the thread, but I am underwhelmed with Jeanneaus the same way I have little excitement for minivans. They get the job done in the charter trade, but I'm not in the charter trade. Unless you can see the benefit of in-mast, don't get a boat that has it.

[MarkJ]

Am I Right to Hate the Idea of a Furling Main: Jeanneau 45DS

No, you are a fool to hate things you know nothing about.

A hobie cat is a long difference to a cruising yacht.

I have slab reefed main... but if I were buying another boat for my purpose of long range cruising for a long life (especially a new one) I would NEVER put on anything else than and in-mast furling main and a furling genoa.

One thing I have learned if that cruisers (and other sailors) often talk 99% fear and BS. People who hate furling mains didint have a modern one, or one at all, or learned to use it.

So, as we know you are not a fool its important for you to go out a sail a boat with the in mast furling. And not just for the brokers one hour test sail in 2 knotsd of wind in the bay. You need to get on a similar boat that you are looking at and give it a good thrashing.... and the (expensive) way to do that is chartering a boat in the trade winds areas where you can count on 15 to 20 knots each day.

A Jeaneau 45DS would be an excellent boat for a long and extended 10 year or more cruise world wide. During that 10 years the number of times you 'need' to have the last 1/4 knot of boat speed is negligible, but the number of times you wish to do a quick, simple, short-handed sail set, reef or douse will be innumerable.

Boat buying is an incredible exciting time that can have years of reprecussions for failures to properly consider things.... have fun with it and be real with yourself and you will make the right decisions.

And if you screw up then I'l swap you my boat with its slab reefing for your new Jeaneau 45DS


Did you say ICE MAKER????????????????????????????? I want one of them tooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!


Mark

[S/V Alchemy]

In light of the comments on the 45DS, I should state that I haven't been aboard this model, but have been aboard smaller Jeanneaus that didn't strike me as particularly special. Your mileage, etc. Maybe the 45DS is a hot rod, but I still don't love in mast furling...

[Bash]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

People who hate furling mains didint have a modern one, or one at all, or learned to use it.

There's the truth! I've had furling mains on the last two boats, and at a point where I'm approaching 20,000nm with such systems I've never yet had a jam. It helps a great deal to know how to do the job the right way.

It's hard not to notice that the folks who scream loudest about how awful in-mast furlers are tend to be people who own little boats. I think we'd all agree that it doesn't make much sense to own a mast that costs more than the entire rest of the boat. But once you need to tangle with more than 500 square feet on sail area in the main, an in-mast furler makes a lot of sense.

With Wonderblond on the jib and me on the main, we can put both sails away in less than a minute. And that's more than 1,000 sq ft of sail area on our boat. And by "away" I mean that there's nothing else to do, no flaking, no sail ties, no sail cover, not even lazy jacks to readjust. It's all done until the next time we want to sail.

I'll never forget the first time I was off-watch when Wonderblond wanted to shorten sail. I jumped out of my berth the moment I heard her ease the mainsheet, but by the time I donned my boots and my harness, she'd already finished the job. When I told her to call me next time she wanted to shorten sail, she could only ask, "Why?"

Think about it: she's 5'3" tall, shops for dresses in the petite section, is in her mid-50s, and doesn't need anyone's help to shorten sail on a 46' sloop.

[S/V Alchemy]

Bash, obviously you feel they are built properly and have clear advantages in your situation. But do you feel they draw as well as traditional battened, tracked mains?

In other words, you've said what you've gained from in-mast furling. Do you feel that you've lost anything?

[Curmudgeon]

Wonderblond could have done the same with a boom furler or a stack pack with single line reefing.

[Cotemar]

Had inmast furling main on my Catalina 380 and loved it.
In the six years that we owned it, we never had a problem with it and my girlfiend did all the sail handling by herself. Made her feel good about sail handling and her abilities.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Bash, obviously you feel they are built properly and have clear advantages in your situation. But do you feel they draw as well as traditional battened, tracked mains?

In other words, you've said what you've gained from in-mast furling. Do you feel that you've lost anything?

I get good sail shape. I can exceed theoretical hull speed in a moderate breeze. I point between 30-35 degrees close-hauled, depending on conditions. Sail shape is compromised when sailing partially furled, much in the same way that foresail shape is compromised with a roller furling system.

When I built a new main in my previous boat, I used full vertical battens. I still have the OEM main on the new boat, so I'm not sure what I'll do once I need another main. I'd love to see them come up with new solutions within the next couple years, before I need to replace the current sail.

If there's a downside, it's that I carry more weight aloft than I would with other furling/reefing systems. Granted, this is not nearly so drastic as if I'd have had to go to a split rig such as a ketch. But the stick on my boat is clearly heavier than it would be normally.

The boat was designed for its rig, and I'm not in any way underpowered because of it. I've learned that I've got to pay more attention to the outhaul than I did on a full-battened rig, and that I use a bit more vang than I previously did. This means that I don't get as much twist as I'd like in light air. When sailing, I pay a lot more attention to the luff than I ever would with a full-battened main where the luff often appears to be drawing well even when it's not trim.

If my boat goes slower than had I set it up differently, it's not so much because of the in-mast furling as it is because of the dodger, the davits, the solar bimini, the wind generator, the 100 meters of chain in the bow, et cetera. It's a full-on cruiser.

That said, when I take her out sailing tomorrow, I'll be passing far more boats than will be passing me.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The very, very short answer is that most people with furling mains like them. In the UK, where I sail, large cruising boats almost don't exist without furling mains. Furling mains have certain advantages and certain disadvantages.

Quite

Having had our offer accepted we took April Lass for a days sailing with the owner as a sea trial, but particularly curious to see how the inmast main worked. When I saw the John at 77 years old deploy the main in about 30 seconds I thought that's neat.

Like Dockhead, we have had one jam because we tried to roll the main away in a bit of a blow whilst saying downwind. Turned upwind, pulled out a little and rolled away as normal.

We probably give a little away between F1 and F3 but that's what the cruising chute or engine is for and it is only a fraction. We don't point quite as high but that is more likely to be down to twin keels rather than the sails. BTW our main is now 10 years old and in excellent condition, because its protected from the weather 6 days a week and its stored rolled away not folded and creased. Whilst the Genoa needs replacing at 10 years, the main is still crispy smooth and clean.

So 3 years on, we think its great and if we ever change would look for inmast reefing again before slab reefing.

Suggest you speak to the owner/broker and ask to take her for a days sail.

Pete

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Bash, obviously you feel they are built properly and have clear advantages in your situation. But do you feel they draw as well as traditional battened, tracked mains?

In other words, you've said what you've gained from in-mast furling. Do you feel that you've lost anything?

+1 please

The thread is pretty effective in convincing that this is not an issue. I should go to a racing forum and create a thread "Why would anyone want anything other than in-mast furling main in this day and age?" to get a healthy dose of the other side.

Am I right to observe that other than taller rigs, boats with in-mast furling main also tend to carry bigger genoas as standard?

The point that people arguing for battened sails tend to sail small boats is bang on! I have a tiny 14' Weta trimaran and even the jib is fully battened... Ultimately it's the use... People introduced to sailing via races and small boats think of the boat as 99% rig and sail power...

The point on getting sails away in 1 minute means smaller barrier to sailing after work... so more sailtime... And being realistic, most of my sailing has been and likely will be single-handed. (need to remember to ask how to effectively turn my wife into a wonderblond).

And the issue of not having a way to test this is real...

[s/v Jedi]

Brrrrrrr yuck.. furling mains

But I agree that furling mains are the best option for most, if not all, of the sailors that have it. But that statement has nothing to do with the question of which is better of course !

Let's look at the pro-arguments I found in this thread:

• I get hull speed with it anyway; just at F3-4 wind I have a slight disdadvantage but that's what the engine is for etc.
  Now that is just silly. When you reach hull speed with the regular in-mast furled mainsails, compared to a nice batwing fully battened main you will 1) have much more sail area up 2) have a longer mast and thus 3) heel more. All are bad. Also, boats with the good sails reach hull speed well below F4 wind.
• I saw this 77 year old use it with ease.
  Sure it is good for him but unless you're 77 years old too, it's irrelevant.
• It never jammed for me... or just once.
  think and you find this is an argument against in-mast furling and it shows the fear you have been trying to hide since you have the system
• My wife can handle it.
  You mean she can't hoist a regular mainsail? How about buying an electric winch for hoisting it then?
• I furl it away and I'm done.
  I lower it, close the zipper of my cradle cover and I'm done. Is the less than 1 minute spent to close a zipper after a trip too much trouble?

I have yet to hear a good argument
p.s. (picture of the Jedi submarine below) try to furl these in a mast ...

ciao!
Nick.

[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It would be fine if you don't mind raising and lowering your mainsail every time by threaing the luff through a narrow slot buried within the mast, rather than using external ball-bearing cars like regular mainsails have.

In-mast furling mains are designed to be raised and lowered once a year and will be no good for this kind of use. If you wanted to use a regular battened mainsail, you would need to replace the mast or do a complicated modification to the existing mast to close the slot and put on a track.

Good point. I take that back

Cheers
Oz

[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Having delivered and sailed on a number of Jeanneaus, the above remarks are obviously made by somebody whoese never sailed them

The 45DS to my undersatdning was never offered with teh standard main, Ive taken teh in mast one through some big offshore shores, excellant sea boat, handles well sea kindly. Good setup below. Excellant all rounder, loads of space in that big aft cabin under teh aft deck, mind you not much height

Jeanneaus is the performance/upmarket end of beneteau, was sailing the new 42i ( which is the DS type underbody), very fast boat.

The in mast on the jeanneau is good, maintain it like everything else and it will give years of enjoyment.

Go for it, dont listen to the naysayers, most of whom havent a clue.

Dave

I have overtaken plenty of them. As I said, its my opinion that that are made for people who dont want to work up a sweat. I didnt say there was anything wrong with that. Its just where they appear to place themselves in the market.

Cheers
Oz

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by ozskipper

I have overtaken plenty of them. As I said, its my opinion that that are made for people who dont want to work up a sweat. I didnt say there was anything wrong with that. Its just where they appear to place themselves in the market.

Cheers
Oz

And where do think that point in the market is

[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by meyermm

And where do think that point in the market is

The weekend sailor who's wife doesnt really want to get involved. So the boat makes a nice balance of "he gets his toy-She gets a comfy place to entertain her guests while hubby drives." Perhaps thats over-simplifying it and I may offend some jeanneau fans- cant be helped.

I am not insulting the boats or the owners. Thats not my intention. Just pidgeon holing the design


Cheers
Oz