Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-02-2011, 07:22   #61
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,562
Images: 14
I would be slightly wary of a slab reefing mast that had been converted to inmast by adding a great big section. The boats sail plan wasn't designed with this in mind. We have quite a stiff mast for our inmast reefing. As I said earlier we have twin spreaders, not normally found on a 31 foot boat. The same boat with slab reefing has a single spreader rig and the same mast height. I am not convinced bolting on an extension to an ordinary mast is therefore a good idea.

The one jam we did have was caused by the sail not rolling away cleanly. It had a fold half way up which caused the jam. Going back to the advice I was given when we bought her was to keep the boom at 90 degrees when reefing. This allows the sail to roll away cleanly without folds, so no jams, it also preserves the sail by avoiding creases being formed.

Pete
__________________

__________________
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:03   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Guernsey
Boat: Cabo Rico Norteast 400, 40', 'Briez'
Posts: 36
We've had a Selden in-mast system for the last 11 years and I've never had a jam. I'd be curious to know how many of the people decrying in-mast furling go to sea with a furling headsail? Probably most of them. The consequences of a headsail jamming whilst partially furled are no less worrying than for the mainsail (and don't tell me that you can go forward and turn the headsail foil by hand - have you ever tried turning the foil on a loaded or flogging headsail? :-)

The mechanism - and even some of the actual components as far as I am aware - are the same for in-mast furling and headsail furling. Why should one be inherently more likely to jam than the other? The key to a trouble-free furl is to come pretty much into the wind and then furl the sail. Having said that we've often reefed successfully by progressively easing the outhaul a little, then furling, then easing the outhaul a little more and so forth.

As to sail shape, one big advantage (especially compared to in-boom systems) is that you can so easily play with the outhaul to flatten or deepen the sail. Additionally you can still play with the vang or the main halyard tension if you want to.

Our previous two boats had slab reefing: would I go back to that? Absolutely not - convenient and trouble free furling have convinced me for one of the merits. However, everyone as slightly different priorities. I would suggest (if you buy the boat) that you try the system for a season or two before making any expensive changes.
__________________

__________________
Arcady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:59   #63
Senior Cruiser
 
Minggat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hawaii, South Pacific bound
Boat: Islander 36
Posts: 1,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
To fully clarify there are three main sail reeding systems I have seen- in mast, boom and aft of mast. The last looks like a roller reef for a jib that is mounted to the aft side of the mast.

The rolling boom and the aft of mast do not appear (to the uninformed) to be as robust as an in the mast system installed by the manufacturer. But then again, I am still learning.

Thanks
You are correct. I neglected to include the aft of mast furler. It was not intentional, but …. Also correct IMO that the aft of mast is less robust. And I can say that I have seen some "rolling booms" that looked... primitive. But “furling booms” as the modern ones are called are pretty sophisticated IMO.

You might want to Google furling boom under manufactures like Harkin, Leisure Furl and Schaefer.
__________________
Minggat
Minggat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 09:18   #64
Moderator Emeritus
 
FrankZ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Bristol 35 Bellesa
Posts: 13,565
Images: 1
Has anyone tried something like this: Airbattens to go with in mast furling?
__________________
Sing to a sailor's courage, Sing while the elbows bend,
A ruby port your harbor, Raise three sheets to the wind.
......................-=Krynnish drinking song=-
FrankZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 09:52   #65
Registered User
 
earthbm's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Corona Del Mar
Boat: Dragonfly 35
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankZ View Post
Has anyone tried something like this: Airbattens to go with in mast furling?
This sounds complicated (meaning likely to cause problems with tangled hoses, etc):
Each Batten has its own air tube running down the leech of the sail to the clew where the tubes are connected to multichannel coiled tubing running to the mid boom.
Took out a 33' Hunter with a furling main yesterday... Life is made easier in a busy harbor when singlehanded for sure, but couldn't get a good feel for performance, was certainly not overwhelmed.
__________________
earthbm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 12:16   #66
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
These discussions are either funny or boring for long time sailors, but for new sailors who are about to buy a boat it is worrying.

What I think must be made clear is that there are many forms of slab-reefing. When someone states that in-mast furling is so much more convenient that slab reefing... I always wonder:
  • did they have a fully battened main?
  • did they have a stack-pack or cradle-cover?
  • did they have lazy-jacks?
  • in case of a big boat: did they have a powered halyard winch?
These 3-4 points make a huge difference. I would not want to do without them and dare to say that they make as much difference to the old-style slab reefing mains as does in-mast furling.

I sailed a 42 footer 10 years ago which had slab reefing and I didn't have to leave the cockpit to reef it. I don't understand why "not having to leave the cockpit" is a label given only to in-mast or in-boom furling 10 years later.

So, people who are looking to buy a boat should look at much more than just a choice between slab-reefing and in-mast furling. Rent/charter a yacht with in-mast furling and sail it for a nice holiday week. Then rent one with the lazy-jacks/full-battens/stack-pack for the 2nd week of the holiday. Then, you can make a choice. Most of what is posted in this thread is similar to monohul vs catamaran discussions: we all prefer what we have.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 12:25   #67
Registered User
 
Safari38LH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Marion, Ma
Boat: Little Harbor 38
Posts: 259
I have a Little Harbor 38 with in mast furling. It's awesome! I would never buy a boat without it. When others are motoring or sailing around with just their jibs because they don't want the hassle of dealing with their mainsail I am always sailing with both sails. It's so easy I often daysail by myself. We spend a minimum of a month cruising every summer and sail every day when not cruising.

I also like the fact that my mast is a little taller to make up for the sail area difference. It makes the boat prettier. Battens were originally made to break the rules - the roach was not measured. If you are cruising, who cares about the rules?

Things to note:

Always keep a little tension on the outhaul when stowing the sail.
Keep the boom at the right angle to the mast.
Make sure the wind angle is not causing the sail to bind on the mast slot.
Do not over tighten the internal foil. If you do you will ruin the bearings (I've done that twice!)

I have never had a major jam - only one minor one. My mainsail is almost ten years old so starting to get a little baggy but it still stows fine.
__________________
Safari38LH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 07:32   #68
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
If there's a downside, it's that I carry more weight aloft than I would with other furling/reefing systems. .
How? Not when the sail is unfurled.
When its partially furled (reefed) the extra weight would be percentagly tiny compared with the boats overall weight.
If its fully furled what weight up the mast got to do with anything?

Mark
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 07:55   #69
Senior Cruiser
 
Minggat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hawaii, South Pacific bound
Boat: Islander 36
Posts: 1,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post

How?
Taller mast= more weight up high + some hardware inside the mast.
__________________
Minggat
Minggat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 11:12   #70
Registered User
 
MSN-Travelers's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Boat: `99 Beneteau Oceanis 352, #282 s/v Witchcraft
Posts: 43
Thumbs up Fan of RF Main ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
As someone who is learning about roller reefs, this thread has been very educational. Especially when looking at older boats that were retrofitted with roller-reef mains.

The comment was made more than once about how the newer roller reefs are more reliable. For those of us looking at older boats, is there a year/make/design feature that will help identify the more reliable versions?

Thanks

Bill
We have a `99 Beneteau 35 footer with Roller Furling (RF) main. Mast & boom were manufactred by US Spars, Inc (Z.Spars in the UK). The mast, with proper maintenance, has been trouble-free. The RF inhaul line can be problematic if it has become swollen/stiff with age & exposure to the elements. It needs to be replaced every two or three years.

The only time we have experienced "jamming" is when we attepted to furl the main and were still on the wind. Haven't had any problems when into the wind as you would with a traditional setup.

And as several people pointed out, an in-mast RF main works well when you have a husband/wife team where the wife is less than beefy. My wife is 4'10" on a tall day and has no ploblem with sail handling on this boat. She did when we had a 26 footer with traditional main.
__________________
MSN-Travelers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 12:34   #71
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
These discussions are either funny or boring for long time sailors, but for new sailors who are about to buy a boat it is worrying.

What I think must be made clear is that there are many forms of slab-reefing. When someone states that in-mast furling is so much more convenient that slab reefing... I always wonder:
  • did they have a fully battened main?
  • did they have a stack-pack or cradle-cover?
  • did they have lazy-jacks?
  • in case of a big boat: did they have a powered halyard winch?
These 3-4 points make a huge difference. I would not want to do without them and dare to say that they make as much difference to the old-style slab reefing mains as does in-mast furling.

I sailed a 42 footer 10 years ago which had slab reefing and I didn't have to leave the cockpit to reef it. I don't understand why "not having to leave the cockpit" is a label given only to in-mast or in-boom furling 10 years later.

So, people who are looking to buy a boat should look at much more than just a choice between slab-reefing and in-mast furling. Rent/charter a yacht with in-mast furling and sail it for a nice holiday week. Then rent one with the lazy-jacks/full-battens/stack-pack for the 2nd week of the holiday. Then, you can make a choice. Most of what is posted in this thread is similar to monohul vs catamaran discussions: we all prefer what we have.

ciao!
Nick.
Very true. I for one never said that in-mast furling is vastly easier than a good stack-pack setup. That's not really its main advantage -- it's a myth that in-mast furling makes for "push-button sailing". The main advantages of in-mast furling are that (a) you can really do everything from the cockpit; (b) infinite variability in your reefs; (c) saves flaking and covering at the end of the day; (d) wonderful protected storage of the sail inside the mast; (e) don't need to head up to reef. The disadvantages we all know about. You pays yer money . . .
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 12:45   #72
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
How? Not when the sail is unfurled.
When its partially furled (reefed) the extra weight would be percentagly tiny compared with the boats overall weight.
If its fully furled what weight up the mast got to do with anything?

Mark
No, he's right -- the foil is in there. Plus the mast will be higher if the rig is designed for in-mast furling. One kilo of weight up there is worth 10 kilos in the keel, so it's not tiny. So when the boat (not just he rig) is designed for in-mast furling, you will have more weight in the keel.

Lack of roach will reduce heeling moment, though.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 14:54   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: charter
Posts: 10
..."The mechanism - and even some of the actual components as far as I am aware - are the same for in-mast furling and headsail furling. Why should one be inherently more likely to jam than the other?..."

Because if it is not furled tight enough it can be too fat to move when you try to bring it back out. Also, if there is a crease going in (or out) it gets jambed in the slot. The headsail has no enclosure and no slot to fit through. You really can't compare the two.

I charter Jeanneaus regularly. And I experience jambs regularly. Of course, I am the common denominator, however, I think charter boats' in-mast furls are prone to jamb (for several reasons) and help give in-mast furling a bad name. First, the sails get baggy more quickly so they don't stay snug when furled. And when they get stretched toward the head the head tends to furl before the rest even starts to twist/move. This starts a nice fat fold that has to squeeze through the slot... etc, etc. Too many users making wrong adjustments and before you know it you have a system that does not work properly. The newer the boat the better the experience I have had.

Love the 45DS. I love the traditional stuff too, but for what it was meant to be, they did a good job with the 45DS.

Cheers.
__________________
sevent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 17:32   #74
Registered User
 
DeWittcap's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Connecticut
Boat: Jeanneau 50 DS
Posts: 28
This has been an interesting discussion. Having done much racing and offshore cruising, I had real doubts about a furling main. I have sailed many times on a Beneteau 49 with the in mast furler and came to the conclusion that wasn't for me. Two jams in 20 kts and difficulty in producing an acceptanle sail shape was enough for me. However, the ease of it all, instant sails on leaving a harbor and the effortless task of reefing sure were nice offsets. I just took delivery of a Jeanneau 50 DS (formerly had a Cambria) with the "classic" mast. Although I had to pay up for the rig, for me this was the correct decision. An additional 110 sq. ft of sail area and roach assures better speed, shape and control. Reefing is a single line (new to me) and like the main is assisted by an electric winch. The only drawback, and its not a small one, is the flaking of the sail into the stack pack and then zipping it closed. With the proper power assists, one can still single hand a 50 footer.
__________________
DeWittcap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 21:02   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto, ON
Boat: Jeanneau 39DS, O2
Posts: 2
Hello all/Earthbm,*

I probably shouldn’t make my first post and comments in this forum on such a contentious issue as to whether or not to go with in-mast furling, but after reading several different posts where this question has come up, (I have been a silent observer for at least 3 years), I’d like to chime in with my own experience.

When I owned a sailboat with a classic main, I swore by it and wouldn't think of ever buying a boat with in-mast furling.* Now that I own a boat with in-mast furling, as a cruiser, I probably will never go back to a classic main - my preference based on my experience.
*
I continue to read posts regarding jamming problems with these systems, but most statements are unclear as to whether these systems fail due to human error or if there are mechanical flaws which lead to furling failure. If people are experiencing mechanical failures related to design flaws, I would find this information much more useful then someone simply stating that these systems "jam". *This leads me to believe that these people either don't know how to use them (correctly) or have never used them. There is a learning curve to in-mast furling and it would be prudent for a skipper (and crew) to review their individual nuances before setting sail and being hit with a 50+ knot squall . Read the manufactures "Tips and Tricks" - Simple techniques like knowing what tack to best furl on (based on whether the sail rolls up clockwise or counter clockwise) will mitigate a lot of problems.

As for your concerns on sailing performance... *There are too many factors are involved to make a blanket statement when we don't know what you are comparing it to. Weather conditions, boat specs, experience of the crew, point of sail, sail area, all impact performance differently on different boats. I do believe the Jeanneau will give any like boat a run for the money. *Mine is only a 39DS and while on vacation last summer, I had the opportunity to cruise along side friends who owns a similar size German production boat with classic main configuration. The skipper is an avid racer and the boat is categorized more on the "performance" side then my "cruiser". Not only did we keep up, but we were able to stay ahead of them more often then not...I was also surprised that we were able to point a lot higher then them. * We also sail a lot with friends who own a 47' production boat made by Jeanneau' sister company. *This boat should out performance the Jeanneau based on LWL alone...It has never been able to successfully pull away from us. *Again...We cruise on this boat, not race. Oh, and I forgot to mention that we are liveaboards and the boat is fully loaded with an 88 key digital piano in the V-berth. *

Could I be doing something right with sail trim on an in-mast furling or does any boat reach a certain threshold (wind speed) where maybe a perfectly trimmed classic main doesn't out-perform a sloppy furling main? Does it really matter??
__________________

__________________
SailO2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling, jeanneau

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jeanneau 45DS wn6789 Monohull Sailboats 4 25-05-2011 05:57
Gori or MaxProp for my Jeanneau 45DS rhrrhrrhr Propellers & Drive Systems 7 18-05-2010 16:39
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 9 20-02-2009 09:52
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 1 10-02-2009 09:06



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.