Advice on these two large cruisers: Endeavour 51 and Olympic 47

[sailingunity]

Hey everyone, 2nd post here. My family and I are going to take up the cruising lifestyle soon and we're interested in a couple of boats I'm keen to get opinions on, I've searched on Google and can find very little info as far as first hand knowledge.

1974 Olympic 47 3 cabins
Ketch currently for sale in Maryland. Well outfitted and just completed a circumnavigation, systems are not new but doesn't need much work (from the listing). No genset or AC. No doubt built very seaworthy but has a more "full" keel. How well does it sail? Any issues with maneuvering in tight spaces? Our broker considers AC essential but is it really needed for tropical sailing?

1985 Endeavour 51 4 cabins
Sloop, this one is not as well equipped, but we like the layout and is close to home so I could fix it up while keeping my job. Would be great for our growing family plus have some extra room for visitors, large galley/dinette area. Needs SSB, AIS, dinghy, liferaft, solar, watermaker, spare sails, spare parts. Would wind up costing more than the Olympic once outfitted, but it is bigger, and newer, maybe too big? I don't know. Is it seaworthy?

Thanks all for your help. Michael.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Howdy.

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice with the sole intent to help you get better answers to your questions.

Do the following, which will be helpful to the forum members who might be able to guide you better if they know more about your needs and goals and experience and budget:

1. Tell the forum something about your sailing experience level and where it was gained. Whether you are a newbie to sailing or just new to boat ownership makes a difference. Whether you have ever sailed a big keel boat makes a difference too. If you are considering a larger boat (35 feet or longer) then do you have experience handling or managing larger boats? If this will be your first keel boat tell the forum. If it will be your "live aboard" primary residence, say so. If you plan on weekend or long term sailing (long distances) say so.

2. Tell the forum where you are located (this is a global forum) and where you intend to sail the boat. Some boats are optimized for lake sailing, some for the tropics, some for colder waters, some for shallow waters, some for trade winds, and others for racing/cruising on sheltered waters or just for weekend sailing.

3. Tell the forum how many people and ages will be in your "crew" on the boat for either day sailing or long term cruising etc. Sailing with "family" does not say enough. Are the family members so young or so old that they cannot help manage the boat?

4. Tell the forum your experience with boat maintenance and whether you are more likely to do the maintenance on the boat yourself or hire others to do it. Put simply, do you consider yourself a handyman? Do you avoid doing home or car repairs yourself?

5. Tell the forum what your budget is for the "Asking Price" or what is the maximum Asking Price you would consider. Indicate if you will have additional funds for refitting a used boat to upgrade or maintain it.

6. Tell the forum if you have any special requirements or preferences for age of boats, keel shape, brand, etc. If you like newer boats, say so. If you are attracted to older boats because of price or because of styling, say so.

7. If you have a specific boat in mind and it is currently for sale, consider posting a link to it or photos of it, to help others make some comments based on a specific boat. Every boat is different in condition, and what may be a good "type or model" of boat may be a very poor choice if a specific boat has not been well maintained and is in need of obvious or likely repair or significant upgrades.
_______________

I notice that you are new to the forum.
These suggestions are intended to help you and to help others help you in the future. Since you may be a member for years and boat searches often take a long time, I have another suggestion for you:

Go to your CF Forum Profile and answer those 7 questions above in a text or "introduction" or "bio" that you add to your Profile "About" tab or page.

That way when other CF members click on your avatar or user name to learn something about you, they will be able to read about your experience and your goals and your interest (buying a type of boat). This helps others understand and help you in the future.

Already your profile page has been visited dozens of times by other members (at the time I am writing this), but there is nothing to learn there because it is empty. Fix that by adding content that helps others help you.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful. Good luck on your boat search!

[sailingunity]

Thanks SteadyHand. I usually try to keep my posts short and to the point... but I'm glad to answer these questions if you think it will help.

I've grown up sailing with my dad, first with a Capri 26 (lake sailing), then Catalina 30 (bay sailing), then a Hunter 40 (bay sailing). While I've never captained a boat, I know the ropes (lines!). My wife has little experience but we are teaching her the basics with a Hunter 23. She and I intend to liveaboard and travel for as long as our money will take us.

We live in Texas but will start where ever we find the boat. Where will we go exactly? We don't know at this point but plan on staying in the tropics, a circumnavigation is not the main goal but might happen. We just want to travel with our family and have some amazing experiences.

My wife and I have 3 girls, 5, 2 and 3 months. I know it probably sounds crazy to be taking kids that young, to be honest I'm not sure how old they will be when we finally get a boat or leave the US territorial waters. People have done it before us so it must not be impossible (even if it is hard!). My dad will most likely join us for longer passages.

I built most of the house we are living in now so I guess you could say we're pretty handy. My dad and I have always done our own boat maintenance whenever possible.

As far as the type of boat we are looking for, around $100k. High on our list are center cockpit and 3 cabins (Are we done with kids yet? Who knows!) If already outfitted for ocean passages that is a plus - solar, wind, SSB, dinghy, watermaker, liferaft, AIS, the list goes on. Not looking for a project boat that needs major repairs, but if we find something that needs some outfitting that is OK. We want to try to stay under 50 feet for ease of handling and cost/maintenance reasons (I know the Endeavour listed above is 51, its right on the edge of what we feel is too big but it has 4 cabins which we might need in the long run).

Michael

[Steadman Uhlich]

With $100K budget you will have many possible boats to consider.

The following is my opinion, based on considering the scenario (family with 3 kids). There are many families cruising with small children or live aboard with small kids. That does not bother me, and I would do it too, if I had a family.

Here is one boat I suggest for a "family wanting to cruise, need older boat (budget) and need more than two cabins because we have 3 kids plus 2 adults." This may not appeal to everyone, but it is top on my personal list if I were in that situation.

IF you had a larger budget, I would look for a used Lagoon 380 (38 foot cat) but those are listing today at about $125 at the minimum, and you would probably want to spend about $20-40K on upgrades and refit for that kind of boat (or any boat that size).

So, be aware that you should reserve some of your total budget for refitting the used boat before you take off on an ocean crossing.


DUFOUR 12000CT

These have a "family friendly" layout, a nice pilothouse (the key feature I like if I had small children or was traveling in colder areas), with two forward cabins that can have two twin berths (bunks) in each (total of four people in two forward cabins), along with a very nice double cabin aft for the parents and a nice cockpit etc. It is 44ft LOA. Search online and you will see there is a family (with daughters) cruising south from SOCAL. They have a nice blog that shows their boat refit (and decoration).

DUFOUR 12000 CT sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

http://gonesailing.com/Documents/DufourBrochure.pdf

__________________

Like I said up top, with $100K to spend on the asking price, you have many possibilities, including large (50 foot) used excharter boats that are newer than the Dufour. Something like a Beneteau or "Moorings" type boat that is 2005 or so age. For example a 2006 Beneteau Cyclades (3 cabin, 3 heads) for about $75K.

2006 Beneteau Cyclades 43 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
_________________

As for the two boats you mentioned up top?

I don't know anything about those two models.

But, I have looked at Endeavors (thought of buying a 43 CC one long time ago) and have done 2,500 passage miles in an Endeavor 37, so I have been aboard them and liked them for cruising or live aboard and see them as a good value boat today (some are priced as low as $30K), that would suit most sailors for coastal cruising or Bahamas, etc.

Minimal Expense Living While Kids are Young
I think the Endeavor 37 (A Plan) could work for you and your family while your kids are young. Be aware it has only 1 head, but that is not such a problem with young kids. Later you could move to a larger boat, having more experience and knowledge of what you really NEED on a boat. So, consider something like that, buy a boat for $50K live on it for a couple of years, and as the kids get older, move up.

Good Luck on your boat search!

[Steadman Uhlich]

This link may help you do some reading on the Endeavour brand and the 51 in particular.
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=011403...051&gsc.page=1

[sailingunity]

Grr I had just finished typing a nice long reply when my browser froze up! Our 100K budget is exclusive of upgrades, we are expecting to spend some on top of that.

We like the 12000CT and there was one in Panama until recently, seemed like a perfect layout for a good price but we missed it.

The Cyclades is nice too and we've seen it on one of our favorite bloggers (La Vagabonde). Cabin is a bit "open" for rolly seas and the aft cockpit is not ideal for young kids but we could make it work. Walk through transom is nice as well as the large cockpit with table.

This is the Endeavour for sale. We saw it Wednesday and it's in ship shape but does need a few things to get it ocean ready. Maybe 30K of upgrades. 1985 Endeavour Limited Edition 51 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The is the Olympic we are looking at. 1974 Olympic Adventure Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I completely understand keeping costs down, that means we can cruise longer, but at the same time buying and selling boats in and of itself is such an expensive endeavor with repairs, brokers, fees and surveys. I'd like to find a boat we can keep for the long term even if there is a bit of a learning curve.

[Stu Jackson]

The mods should make this a sticky on a few of the sub-forums that get these repetitive questions.

WELL DONE! SH

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Howdy.

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice with the sole intent to help you get better answers to your questions.

Do the following, which will be helpful to the forum members who might be able to guide you better if they know more about your needs and goals and experience and budget:

1. Tell the forum something about your sailing experience level and where it was gained. Whether you are a newbie to sailing or just new to boat ownership makes a difference. Whether you have ever sailed a big keel boat makes a difference too. If you are considering a larger boat (35 feet or longer) then do you have experience handling or managing larger boats? If this will be your first keel boat tell the forum. If it will be your "live aboard" primary residence, say so. If you plan on weekend or long term sailing (long distances) say so.

2. Tell the forum where you are located (this is a global forum) and where you intend to sail the boat. Some boats are optimized for lake sailing, some for the tropics, some for colder waters, some for shallow waters, some for trade winds, and others for racing/cruising on sheltered waters or just for weekend sailing.

3. Tell the forum how many people and ages will be in your "crew" on the boat for either day sailing or long term cruising etc. Sailing with "family" does not say enough. Are the family members so young or so old that they cannot help manage the boat?

4. Tell the forum your experience with boat maintenance and whether you are more likely to do the maintenance on the boat yourself or hire others to do it. Put simply, do you consider yourself a handyman? Do you avoid doing home or car repairs yourself?

5. Tell the forum what your budget is for the "Asking Price" or what is the maximum Asking Price you would consider. Indicate if you will have additional funds for refitting a used boat to upgrade or maintain it.

6. Tell the forum if you have any special requirements or preferences for age of boats, keel shape, brand, etc. If you like newer boats, say so. If you are attracted to older boats because of price or because of styling, say so.

7. If you have a specific boat in mind and it is currently for sale, consider posting a link to it or photos of it, to help others make some comments based on a specific boat. Every boat is different in condition, and what may be a good "type or model" of boat may be a very poor choice if a specific boat has not been well maintained and is in need of obvious or likely repair or significant upgrades.
_______________

I notice that you are new to the forum.
These suggestions are intended to help you and to help others help you in the future. Since you may be a member for years and boat searches often take a long time, I have another suggestion for you:

Go to your CF Forum Profile and answer those 7 questions above in a text or "introduction" or "bio" that you add to your Profile "About" tab or page.

That way when other CF members click on your avatar or user name to learn something about you, they will be able to read about your experience and your goals and your interest (buying a type of boat). This helps others understand and help you in the future.

Already your profile page has been visited dozens of times by other members (at the time I am writing this), but there is nothing to learn there because it is empty. Fix that by adding content that helps others help you.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful. Good luck on your boat search!

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by sailingunity

Grr I had just finished typing a nice long reply when my browser froze up! Our 100K budget is exclusive of upgrades, we are expecting to spend some on top of that.

We like the 12000CT and there was one in Panama until recently, seemed like a perfect layout for a good price but we missed it.

The Cyclades is nice too and we've seen it on one of our favorite bloggers (La Vagabonde). Cabin is a bit "open" for rolly seas and the aft cockpit is not ideal for young kids but we could make it work. Walk through transom is nice as well as the large cockpit with table.

This is the Endeavour for sale. We saw it Wednesday and it's in ship shape but does need a few things to get it ocean ready. Maybe 30K of upgrades. 1985 Endeavour Limited Edition 51 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The is the Olympic we are looking at. 1974 Olympic Adventure Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I completely understand keeping costs down, that means we can cruise longer, but at the same time buying and selling boats in and of itself is such an expensive endeavor with repairs, brokers, fees and surveys. I'd like to find a boat we can keep for the long term even if there is a bit of a learning curve.

I looked at both boats you linked.

Simply put: Based on just those two boats (if no others are considered) I would PASS on the Endeavour and OFFER on the Olympic.

The previous Owner (or seller) of the Olympic has done so much to upgrade and keep that boat in good condition. Look at the detailed list of the many relatively recent upgrades to important systems. Impressive!

While the Olympic is not the most attractively styled boat, and the year or age (1974) may seem too old to many shoppers, it does seem to me to be a very well equipped (by the seller) and maintained boat that looks like it is "Ready to Go Again." The amount of upgraded system work is impressive, and indicates a substantial amount of money has been spent making that a "blue water boat."

While the Olympic is not the prettiest or most modern in styling or decoration, it does seem attractive for those sailors (like me) looking for a practical long distance cruiser. Just looking at the engine room will cause many cruisers to be envious! .

Good luck on your search.

[Steadman Uhlich]

FYI: I just saw that a CF member has an Olympic 47. You could contact him via a private message and ask him about the Olympic that is for sale, tips, experiences, etc. user name is LODESMAN

[sailingunity]

Wow thanks Steady, you have been so helpful. I absolutely agree with you that the Olympic has an impressive record, that alone is enough to get us very interested.

Not sure if this makes a difference or not but I just found out the E51 has a watertight bulkhead in the forward cabin. This seems like a really good safety feature that I don't see much on boats, and kind of makes me lean towards it a little more. What do you think? While not as well equipped it did seem to be well cared for.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by sailingunity

Wow thanks Steady, you have been so helpful. I absolutely agree with you that the Olympic has an impressive record, that alone is enough to get us very interested.

Not sure if this makes a difference or not but I just found out the E51 has a watertight bulkhead in the forward cabin. This seems like a really good safety feature that I don't see much on boats, and kind of makes me lean towards it a little more. What do you think? While not as well equipped it did seem to be well cared for.

Glad to be of help, when I can.

The feature you mention on the E51 is not anything I would consider very valuable, especially in comparison to the much better preparation and engine compartment of the Olympic.

Years ago, I thought every sailboat should have watertight compartments, more than one. Seems prudent.

But, now, after years of studying the issues, I think it is not a great big issue, unless one is going to go to the Polar regions.

Why?
Because more boats sink because of faulty through hulls, poorly fastened hoses in the head, malfunctioning bilge pumps, and poorly maintained steering or propulsion systems, (leaks).

So, while the watertight bulkhead, crash compartment, and watertight compartments might be nice to have, they don't seem as important a feature, to me, as properly fitted and maintained rubber hoses on the engine or plumbing in the head.

In short, spend the money and focus on the little things more likely to sink the boat.

------------
Disclaimer: If I were going to the polar regions, I would have a better boat, with watertight compartments. It would NOT be the E51.

[Stu Jackson]

The saloon ALONE on the Olympic would make it a no brainer choice for me. Much more comfortable sea boat. SH is right, the engine room, also alone, is a winner. I don't think there's any comparison.

Then add all the OTHER better stuff...

Good luck.

[sailingunity]

Very helpful advice! I guess I have images of striking a submerged shipping container or sleeping whale, running up on a reef unexpectedly. The extra price of outfitting the Endeavour to get the watertight bulkhead seemed worth it.

However it is probably wise for me to take your advice. Can you elaborate on what you like about the dedicated engine room and saloon?

[Ramblingman]

I've seen the Olympic in person. It's a well done boat. Not very pretty but a great world cruiser. As a couple cruising with guests, I'd take it. The salon is nice and overall the boat would IMHO feel better in heavy seas.

That said - if I were living aboard with kids and coastal/Caribbean cruising, I would find the Endeavor more like a land based home in anchored/docked comfort. The spaces are more likely to make a lot of Admirals ( aka Wives ) happier. It is what sold so many Morgans, Irwins and other boats.

Every boat is a compromise, the question is where, what and how?

BTW - look to Totem and see how they have raised kids on a boat. They are in the US right now up North on the East Coast.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by sailingunity

Very helpful advice! I guess I have images of striking a submerged shipping container or sleeping whale, running up on a reef unexpectedly. The extra price of outfitting the Endeavour to get the watertight bulkhead seemed worth it.

However it is probably wise for me to take your advice. Can you elaborate on what you like about the dedicated engine room and saloon?

I understand your concern about the possibilities of striking a whale or container. Those HAVE sunk a FEW sailboats. But, their occurrence is VERY rare and the much more common reasons for sinking boats are much more mundane (and not best selling book worthy). Many boats sink because a simple hose clamp failed and the hose comes off, leaving a 1-2 inch pipe of seawater flooding the boat, faster than the bilge pump can evacuate.

What about the engine room? Why does it look so special?

If you look at enough sailboats online, one of the things you will notice is that most sailboats have the diesel engine stuffed into a VERY small space. They are usually in such a small space (usually under the ladder) that it can be very difficult to reach ALL parts of the engine, in case there is a need (which there is) to inspect and SERVICE and MAINTAIN the engine and related hardware (drive train, packing gland, fuel filters, exhaust, cooling pumps, seacocks, etc.).

So, the more "open" access to the engine, the better, as it is more likely to lead to a sailor doing what is needed and SHOULD be done.

Taking a look at that Olympic engine space (or "room") one can see it is relatively "open" and "spacious" with good all-around access to the engine and related gear, the wiring and all other items look orderly and easy to inspect and service. And, it appears one could "crawl into" the space to work on something. And it looks very clean (a VERY good sign of continued maintenance). All together, it is the kind of engine space that is RARE on small boats, rarer on sailboats, and rarely seen on boats of that age (1974).

So, this boat (the Olympic) has what many cruisers would LOVE to have on their boat. It shows the seller/owner took pride in his engine, and that is a very good thing to see. Even if the engine and boat have more years, and more hours of work on them, the pride and maintenance shown is a very good thing to see and would give me more confidence in the boat and engine. This is very different from seeing a newer boat with a spotless (unused) engine that is in a very tight engine compartment.

That is my opinion, but it doesn't mean that other boats cannot work. Just that other boats (the ones with tightly confined and hard to reach engines) are more difficult to service, maintain, inspect, and clean.