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Old 01-09-2013, 08:57   #121
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

good post Dockhead
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:02   #122
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As Ive pointed out before its a book I have, its very dated and it really ignores modern developments.



well I assume, they look at all advice and weigh it up, The fact is there are many people on this forum who have sailed "ordinary" boats around the world.



The key is to ignore biased views, and simply look out there at what ordinary people are doing in ordinary boats. Then you realise that average Beneteaus, Bavarias , and other AWBs are crossing oceans, cruising island chains etc.

SImply saying you must have a Valient or similar boat to circumnavigate , simply flies in the face of facts and actually what is going on out there, Furthermore such advice tends to come from a statistically very small group who actually own these types of boat.

IN reality , as any skipper with miles under ones belt will tell you ( especially delivery skippers), its not the boat more the sailing that gets you around.

dave
I don't think we're doing the OP any favors by rehashing the entire "What Is A Bluewater Boat"? debate. There are 185,554 pages of this in the archives which he can read and make up his own mind.

Remember, anyway, that we're talking about a tradewinds circumnavigation. This is not the Southern Ocean. This is not even the English Channel. It's a mistake to get hung up on the question of what is the ultimately seaworthy boat -- how many angels can dance on the head of a keelbolt? That's not the OP's challenge, and you will distract him from other things which he needs to be thinking about.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:03   #123
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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good post Dockhead
Tanks, Dave.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:15   #124
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

Here is a short movie long keel vs. modern production boats. The comparison between a Vindoe 40 (long keel), a Hallberg Rassy 29(fin keel) and a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 30i (short keel).

The result: Halberg and Vindö put softer in the sea. The Jeanneau harder and not so sure, but she has more space ....
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:23   #125
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Try this guy

http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:57   #126
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by tom1263 View Post
Here is a short movie long keel vs. modern production boats. The comparison between a Vindoe 40 (long keel), a Hallberg Rassy 29(fin keel) and a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 30i (short keel).

The result: Halberg and Vindö put softer in the sea. The Jeanneau harder and not so sure, but she has more space ....
The testers declare the HR the winner. Not a surprise here...
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:18   #127
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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The testers declare the HR the winner. Not a surprise here...
No why, they only confirm the difference in the sailing behavior between long-and short keel. There is no "modern designs are better". They are cheaper to build..
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:22   #128
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Completly off-topic but the poster you responded to referred to cars built to American tastes and the American environment, and built in the USA. Ford builds many, many cars for Europe but they are designed for the European market, therefore smaller, with smaller engines, and are certainly not built in the US (mostly Europe but also Asia). They are also not designed in the US. There are some people that like things like Mustangs and Corvettes but that is a niche market in Europe.

If you had driven the roads of Europe, you wouldn't have commented. American cars are a rarity here and no-one would argue that.

Back to regular programming.


Onno
I have driven in Europe, Asia, the middle east, and South America. A Ford Escort is pretty much the same in the US as it is overseas. If it is made by Ford it is an American car. The poster I was addressing goes off on some wild tangents and I was just stating facts.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:25   #129
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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No why, they only confirm the difference in the sailing behavior between long-and short keel. There is no "modern designs are better". They are cheaper to build..
Their remarks were that the long keeler (the Vindö) was hardest to steer. The HR was the best behaved and easiest to steer. And that's a moderate fin keeler, not a long keeler.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:34   #130
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I am not sure if the PS40 I saw was a Pacific Seacraft or a Wauquese. It really doesnt matter, and I will repeat what I said that a designer that puts a front loading fridge in a cruising boat probably has never been to sea. A front loader is the least efficiant type of door since every time you open the door the cold air rushes out, which means more battery power to keep it cold or more engine time, which means larger solar panels or more fuel supply which adds weight or complexity. I did a 2500 mile passage (delivery) on a boat with a front loading fridge that was on the port side of the boat. As Murphys Law works, almost the whole passage was on a port tack. Every time the door was opened you had to hold the door and put a hand up to try to catch flying objects. YES this fridge had lips on both shelves. That leaves you with zero hands for yourself. Front loaders are great for marinas or maybe multihulls, but the pits for a passage making monohull. Having both a front door and a top door is a double whammy in that doors are the least well insulated part of a fridge. I am the first to admit that a top loader is much less friendly in harbor, but cooks never have to cook at 20 degrees of heel while in a marina or at anchor. Just another opinion. ____Grant.
Uh huh. So Bill Crealock and the other designers at Pacific Seacraft have never been to sea because they give people both a top and front loading fridge (I.e. the best of both worlds). Whatever.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:38   #131
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

[QUOTE=deluxe68;1328261]I have driven in Europe, Asia, the middle east, and South America. A Ford Escort is pretty much the same in the US as it is overseas.
[quote]

So a Benneteau build in the US is really a US boat?


Quote:
If it is made by Ford it is an American car.
The auto industry is quite international. There are cars sold under the Ford brand that are just rebadged Japanese cars. Renault has models in its lineup that you will never see on French roads. If you have a new Volvo V40 you've got a Belgian car, not a Swedish one. If you have an older V40 your car came from the same assembly line as the Mitsubishi Carisma.

Ford chooses to use it's Ford brand in most markets. GM however does differently. Nobody is going to call "Opel" an American car, even though it's build by GM.

The Ford Escort was designed in Europe, for the European market. That it later was also produced in the US is just one of the examples of European cars being produced in the US. Ford is not the only one doing this.

That's Globalism. Like Benneteaus being build in the US, or J-Boats in France...

So is a French build J-Boat a French boat, or a US boat?
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:39   #132
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

There is one very nice way to lead the shrouds I have seen employed on some French and Dutch boats: the top shroud and the intermediate shroud terminate on the deck's outer edge/gunwale; the lowers terminate on the coachroof's edge. The sidedeck is clean and uncluttered and support for the crew working the sidedecks is unparalleled.

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Old 01-09-2013, 11:44   #133
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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There is one very nice way to lead the shrouds I have seen employed on some French and Dutch boats: the top shroud and the intermediate shroud terminate on the deck's outer edge/gunwale; the lowers terminate on the coachroof's edge. The sidedeck is clean and uncluttered and support for the crew working the sidedecks is unparalleled.

b.
You wouldn't happen to have any photos of that, would you? That sounds interesting.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:57   #134
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The problem you have is the same I faced a year ago... You don't even know what it is that you don't know! I have now advanced to the stage where I think I know the areas where I don't know LOL...
We are now 6 months into living aboard and 3000 miles under our belts into the Med. we hope eventually to cross the Carribean and then eventually the Pacific.
My solution to your question was to buy a fairly standard production boat in excellent condition, In my case a Jeanneau 45DS. Then make some upgrades to enhance offshore comfort and safety ie.. Inner stay for storm sail, AIS, radar etc.
My premise was that this boat was a common layout so it can't be all bad, it has lots of space, it's rigged for short handed sailing, I didn't have to spend a year and £1000s fixing her, she was relatively cheap and finally... If we decided we hated it it would be easy to sell on!
Everything we have learned along the way is probably peculiar to us. The shortcomings of our particular boat, we work around. The advantages of our particular boat, we enjoy.
I think my biggest error was over estimating how much space we needed... We could easily have done it in a 42 or even a 39!
There have been a few hours when I would have loved to have been in a heavy displacement long Keeler... There have been at least 1000 hours where I have loved my enormous shaded cockpit where I can stretch my 6ft frame out, have 3 ft space beyond my toes and chill!
I would advise a modern production boat to anyone not wishing to round Cape Horn or the NW Passage. It's accessible, it's relatively straightforward and there is an easy exit strategy if you don't get on with the life.
Just my 2p worth... Hope it helps!
Oh, and PS. Try to work out who the armchair sailors who regurgitate 2nd hand wisdom from books written 50 years ago are and politely ignore them! Then work out who the real sea dogs that have been there and done it for years are and pay them due heed! Dockhead gets my vote and Markj also... Just 2 of the many many excellent contributors on this thread alone.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:17   #135
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

Dockhead's long post was a very good one. As was Evans'.

You might also try these resources:

Characteristics of offshore Boats (or something like that)

Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook

Both of these discuss the issues Dockeahd raised, as well as a few other important ergonomics that many folks seem to neglect to their discomfort big time:

settee lengths, curved instead of squared corners on settees, galley configuration (I would appreciate someone elses views on those looong straight galleys compared to a U shaped galley where the cook can lock themselves in safely).

IIRC, you're in San Fransisco. Take yourself out in the ocean past the Potato Patch some gnarly winter day. That'll save you tons of traveling to find bad weather.

Good luck, don't give up, you're not the first one to ask the never-ending question, seems you've read up.

Beth and Evan's website is also quite helpful.
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