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Old 29-08-2013, 20:19   #106
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
I[...] I just looked at the link to the PS40 and when seeing a front opening fridge, my first thought is that the designer has never been to sea, or has let the add men design the interior. It looks like a nice marina boat or weekend sailor, but not a well thought out seaboat. Of course, almost any boat can go almost anywhere, but what looks good at dockside is not always worth a darn at sea. ___Just another opinion. ____Grant.
Are you referring to the Pacific Seacraft 40? If so, the refrigerator also has a locking counter-top hatch. It also has a deep lip behind the front door, to keep things from sliding out. The PS40 is a fine sea boat. You may not like the hull shape, or the weight, but it is designed to be sailed long distances.
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Old 29-08-2013, 20:38   #107
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Buy a boat which performs well and is a joy to sail. As a dinghy sailor you will regret being talked into buying a tank for safety's sake. Take a look at the PHRF ratings for relative performance, and you will probably want something that rates under 100.

The safety aspects are way over-rated--with today's weather forecasting and a bit of patience, you can even safely circumnavigate a catamaran.

Look at each interior from 2 aspects--first, can I easily move though it from handhold to handhold in a seaway, and second, where are 4 people going to sit comfortably.

Look at berths from two perspectives--first, where can you have fun at anchor with lots of ventilation, and second where can your crew rest at sea with minimal motion (smaller is better, best with your pillow 2/3's of the way aft) and stay dry.

I personally would avoid boats with big wrap-around windows--both from a safety standpoint and from the greenhouse effect in the tropics.

A good sailing boat doesn't need much fuel--70 gallons is fine, and over 100 is overkill. We got along fine with 100 gallons (800 pounds) of water for 2 people and a watermaker--even when it crapped out just out of Thailand on the way to the Med.

I'm partial, but I still think the best boat for the money is the mid-80's Beneteau First series designed by German Frers. I do like the Bene 473, but its quite a bit more expensive.
I saw this review a long time ago and seriously looked at this boat before I bought my Morgan 383. http://books.google.com/books?id=jUY...review&f=false
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Old 29-08-2013, 22:13   #108
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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If this is true, how did my boat a Beneteau 473 make if from France across the Atlantic to the Caribbean? How did MarkJ's make a complete circumnavigation? Just because all you can afford is a Bene does not mean it is not up to the task of being a bluewater boat. One of the reason we specifically looked for the 473 was based on a Sydney to Hobart race where a lot of the fleet was really beat up but all of the 473s came back intact.

You, sir, do not know of which you speak.
I think you need to reread my post. I never said that you can't cross an ocean in a Beneteau, and I never said it was not up to the task of being a bluewater boat. My point is that the vast majority of production cruising boats are designed for coastal cruising, including the vast majority of Beneteaus, and are not optimally designed for extended blue water passage making. Of course you can do it, that's not the point. And of course bigger Beneteaus are more likely to be ocean-worthy, but your boat is outside of the OP's size and price range so it's not really relevant.
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Old 29-08-2013, 22:57   #109
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Re: Advice on circumnavigation vessel

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Hey YoloSF

Having just recently come back from a 4.5 year circumnavigation, I can tell you first-hand that all different types, styles, and sizes of sailboats are going around all the time. Whatever you choose to buy, just make sure you really like being on her and can see yourself living on her for many years.

If you do travel into the northern or southern lats, then, yes, of course, you should consider something a bit more stout for heavy weather, of do some modifications to some of the lighter boats out there you are interested in to reinforce their weaknesses.

We have hung out with many international sailors going around on small Jueauneu's and the like, as well as very stout 35-50'+ hallbergs and their like. If you buy a cheaper boat, then you may have to put more into her in terms of modifications and money in the long run. Or, who knows, maybe not.

For 4 people on board, then you will want something bigger. If only 2, with maybe a couple more folks here and there, then you will obviously get more bang for your buck with a smaller boat that is more banged out with gear or a newer year.


If I was in your shoes, I would probably go with a solid well-taken-care-of Halberg or a Kelley Peterson 44. They are both great solid boats with nice spaces and proven circumnav vessels that people go around on year after year.
But, like i said before, you can get around the globe with any boat if you take care of her well and make smart conservative decisions.

Good luck and hope my 2 cents help a bit!

Cheers!

gar
great post - thanks
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Old 30-08-2013, 09:00   #110
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

One other thought that I forgot to pitch in. If you're circumnavigating and there is any likelihood whatsoever that you'll have to do part of it single handed, then it is prudent to select a boat that is manageable in that respect if for no other reason than safety. In the OP's price range, that effectively limits him to something around 40'. While there are plenty of options that make larger modern boats easier to single hand, they generally increase the complexity and cost of the boat.

I would venture to add that if you're only with one other person, the same advice applies. All it takes is one bad bout of seasickness in a nasty sea to incapacitate one crew member, nevermind other injuries that can occur to render a person essentially useless in helping to manage a boat in heavy weather.

Of course, all this is just my opinion, and plenty of people single hand larger boats long distance without incident.

On the weather reporting issue, if the OP still thinks modern weather forecasting is going to be reliable more than 48-36 hours out, even off the east coast of the US, I suggest he read this report on the 2011 NARC (Newport to Bermuda rally). Scroll down the page for the report:

NARC Rally Overview

Granted, it's the "north" atlantic in November, but it illustrates vividly the limits of professional weather forecasting/routing for a group of experienced sailors making an organized passage.
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Old 31-08-2013, 09:28   #111
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
In general all leisure yachts are used in the manner you describe. There never was any "golden age" of yacht building or peak circumnavigation activity. In fact more people are sailing and sailing longer distances then ever before. ( look at the success of organised rallies in recent years )

Why would I want a samson post.?

Long keel , slow, large wetted area, hydrodynamically poor , a function of wooden boat building rather then design. ( square riggers didnt have them for example)

Heaving too is overrated in extremis, a better technique is to keep control.



Hunter is about the ONLY major production builder to use the B&R backstayless rig. Its hardly a "trend".



Ive seen beautiful 30 year old Beneteaus. I have no doubt I'll see beautifully owned and maintained ones in 2020 too.

West Sails ( home built in tiny numbers,not called Wet Snails for nothing ) Valients , full of osmosis, !!!!



Modern boats undertake circum-navigations virtually on the drop of a hat, Voyages that 30-40 years ago got you knighted, are today undertaken by mon and pop sailors.

Furling systems have proven to be reliable, arguably modern system are significantly more reliable then 20-30 years ago.


Then add in national proclivities. This fascination with old designs , is almost exclusively US based, Yet the US is a power boat nation not a sailing one. US sailors are older and often started sailing later. European and Antipodian sailors are the most numerous and dense. They tend to start sailing earlier, and with longer holidays , tend to sail further and more often. If you go to the cross roads of the world cruising community, US sailors are in a small minority.

Do you see this fascination with long keels and Valient style design in European and Antipodian sailors, No you do not. This is the sailing community , and they dont follow your views. ( no more then I dont need a 6.8l gas engine to do 140mph).


There are European cars all over America, theres virtually no US cars in Europe, Similarly, there are European boats all over AMerica, but the makes you mentioned have never been sold in Europe. Only Hunter , and not even Catalina made any inroads in European sailing ( or OZ or NZ). The other brands are tiny in comparison and have never sold in Europe.

What does that tell you ( perhaps youll argue that in driving down the wrong side of an interstate all the others are wrong!) .

dave
I am not sure where you get your data from. Ford sold quite a few cars in just ONE month.

"Overall, registrations of Ford vehicles in its wider European region of 51 markets totalled 131,200 in June, up 2.1 per cent versus last year."

Source:

ford of europe posts sales volume, market share increases in june despite overall industry sales decline
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Old 31-08-2013, 09:33   #112
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Are you referring to the Pacific Seacraft 40? If so, the refrigerator also has a locking counter-top hatch. It also has a deep lip behind the front door, to keep things from sliding out. The PS40 is a fine sea boat. You may not like the hull shape, or the weight, but it is designed to be sailed long distances.
I think he is referring to a Wauquiez ps40.
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Old 31-08-2013, 12:50   #113
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

"...Do you see this fascination with long keels and Valient style design in European and Antipodian sailors, No you do not. ..."

Wrong. By a huge margin.

You may be mixing up French with European. I guess you must be an American.

E.g. many British, Dutch and Scandinavian designs (Rivals, Oysters, Victorias, Vancouvers, Contests, Tradewinds, Koopmans, HRs, Najads, Malos, Allegros, Amigos, Laurins) of same era were equally well designed and built. To a lesser extent, this is still the case. They are the most sought after designs for most EU sailors planning on extended blue water voyages.

If you offer me a same age Bavaria and Valiant, both valued at the same level by the market (unlikely, huh? WHY?) then I, for one, would take that Valiant.

b.
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Old 31-08-2013, 19:04   #114
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

I am not sure if the PS40 I saw was a Pacific Seacraft or a Wauquese. It really doesnt matter, and I will repeat what I said that a designer that puts a front loading fridge in a cruising boat probably has never been to sea. A front loader is the least efficiant type of door since every time you open the door the cold air rushes out, which means more battery power to keep it cold or more engine time, which means larger solar panels or more fuel supply which adds weight or complexity. I did a 2500 mile passage (delivery) on a boat with a front loading fridge that was on the port side of the boat. As Murphys Law works, almost the whole passage was on a port tack. Every time the door was opened you had to hold the door and put a hand up to try to catch flying objects. YES this fridge had lips on both shelves. That leaves you with zero hands for yourself. Front loaders are great for marinas or maybe multihulls, but the pits for a passage making monohull. Having both a front door and a top door is a double whammy in that doors are the least well insulated part of a fridge. I am the first to admit that a top loader is much less friendly in harbor, but cooks never have to cook at 20 degrees of heel while in a marina or at anchor. Just another opinion. ____Grant.
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Old 31-08-2013, 20:22   #115
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Re: Advice on circumnavigation vessel

[QUOTE=Mary Flower;1320721]Here is what Walt Schulz of Shannon Yachts has to say on the subject:
"The side decks on serious offshore boats should offer ample space from the trunk cabin outboard to the toe rail, double lifelines, and 30" tall stainless steel stanchions. Mast stays and genoa tracks should be positioned outboard at the toe rail. This is a significant safety difference between a Shannon and the typical combination racer/cruiser. Going forward at night or in bad weather on a boat with shrouds and genoa tracks right in the middle of the side decks can be difficult and hazardous. The one or two degrees improvement in windward performance that inboard shrouds and tracks may provide simply does not warrant this liability. Accepting the premise that safety should be foremost, the side decks on an offshore boat must allow an unobstructed passage from the cockpit to the bow."

Not too surprising that the designer/builder of boats with outboard shrouds, would sing the praises of having the shrouds outboard. Over the years, I've actually come to prefer inboard shrouds. Bending knees and back to avoid being decapitated not only hurts my knees and back, but tends to mess with my balance. On boats 40' and better there is generally plenty of room between the chainplates and the lifelines for easy passage up to the bow. I think one could make a reasonable case that having the shrouds inboard is actually safer in many circumstances. Certainly more comfortable for me.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:07   #116
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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I am not sure where you get your data from. Ford sold quite a few cars in just ONE month.
Completly off-topic but the poster you responded to referred to cars built to American tastes and the American environment, and built in the USA. Ford builds many, many cars for Europe but they are designed for the European market, therefore smaller, with smaller engines, and are certainly not built in the US (mostly Europe but also Asia). They are also not designed in the US. There are some people that like things like Mustangs and Corvettes but that is a niche market in Europe.

If you had driven the roads of Europe, you wouldn't have commented. American cars are a rarity here and no-one would argue that.

Back to regular programming.


Onno
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:18   #117
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
Completly off-topic but the poster you responded to referred to cars built to American tastes and the American environment, and built in the USA. Ford builds many, many cars for Europe but they are designed for the European market, therefore smaller, with smaller engines, and are certainly not built in the US (mostly Europe but also Asia). They are also not designed in the US.
The cars Ford (and GM) designs, builds and sells in Europe are indeed German cars, not American cars (even though they're not all build in Germany). And Ford now builds and sells quite a few German cars in the US as well...
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:31   #118
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

I brought up the comparison between US orientated cars and boats for a good reason. I was attempting to illustrate that US sailing proclivities are very unique and don't really translate well to worldwide use.
The opposite is true for US power boats, which are widely sold throughout the world .

BY this I mean that the views of what people buy and use, therefore tends to be very statisically small if one listens to US buying choices in relation to US sail models.

The fact is that the larger sailing populations, typical of Europe and the Antipodians, do not obsess about this long keel, traditional style craft choices.

dave
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:37   #119
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

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Not too surprising that the designer/builder of boats with outboard shrouds, would sing the praises of having the shrouds outboard. Over the years, I've actually come to prefer inboard shrouds. Bending knees and back to avoid being decapitated not only hurts my knees and back, but tends to mess with my balance. On boats 40' and better there is generally plenty of room between the chainplates and the lifelines for easy passage up to the bow. I think one could make a reasonable case that having the shrouds inboard is actually safer in many circumstances. Certainly more comfortable for me.
I agree, since one tends to go forward on the high side, outboard shrouds actually tend to be more confining. inboard shrouds are far less confining and easier to go outside of.

few boats that I know of , have the genoa track in the middle of the side deck. most have them close to the cabin trunk.

again people that quote these "maxims" really have little experience and rely on the "sage" advice of biased opinions.

Dave
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:51   #120
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Re: Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

The best advice I can give you is don't get hung up on the choice of boats. That is by far not the more important question. Any reasonably well-found, reasonably modern cruising boat will be ok on a tradewinds circumnavigation, barring a few silly boats like that pilot house thing.

The most important thing is being properly prepared, both yourself and the boat.

Do not underestimate the cost of preparing a boat for an adventure like this. It can easily exceed the price of the boat itself. The problem is not that the boat has to be re-rigged to be fit to sail through the eye of a Cat 5 hurricane, but that 30,000 miles or whatever it is is an enormous amount of wear and tear, and there are no chandleries and no boatyards in the middle of the ocean.

Therefore, you need to be really sure of basic systems like:

1. Standing rigging. Replace if it's not pretty new (I would say less than 5 years). Chainplates and other elements of the rig need to be thoroughly gone through and replaced if necessary. Cost: $5000 to $10000, roughly.

2. Sails. Even if you have brand new or nearly new sails, you will need more, and you will need backups of some. A decent sail inventory for something like that is very different from what you will get with a used boat used for regular cruising. Sails are $$$.

3. Steering. The steering system needs to be gone through with a fine toothed comb, and anything questionable replaced. A problem with steering in the middle of the ocean is very, very bad.

4. Self-steering. If you don't have or intend to acquire a wind vane, then you will need to be very, very sure about your autopilot, its power source, etc., and have spares for everything, and you will need to understand how to fix it (not rocket science, but a certain amount of knowledge is needed). Wind vane is a very good idea, because it gives you a backup for your regular rudder, besides giving you self-steering with no need for power.

5. Water. You'll either need to be sure you will be able to live off what's in your tanks, with reserves in jerry cans, or you will need to install a watermaker, $$$$. Watermaker needs spares, and knowledge to operate and repair it. Watermaker, if you go that route, also needs a reliable source of power.

6. Power. It's possible to sail around the world without electrical power, but few would want to do it, and electronic navigation is impossible without at least some sort of power. So if you're going to be dependent on electrical power, then you have to be really sure that your supply will be reliable. Having multiple redundant supplies is very wise -- heavy-duty alternator on the main engine, heavy-duty diesel generator, then wind, solar, and/or towed generator -- would be what I would want (and it's what I have). All carefully gone through, in perfect condition, with plenty of spare belts and parts (I would carry a whole spare alternator, too).

7. Mechanical propulsion. Engine power is possibly not mission critical like the foregoing items are, but it's a good idea to be sure that the engine is in good nick, that the fuel tanks are clean and not corroded, that you have proper filtration, etc.

8. Watertight integrity. Nothing can spoil an ocean passage like a leak. Through-hulls, stuffing box, rudder seals, hoses, clamps, etc. -- need to be perfect, anything old or questionable should be replaced. You also need to have adequate bilge pumps.

9. Safety. If you are responsible for the lives of four people, you will want to have reasonable safety equipment. Life raft, EPIRB, MOB gear, long range comms (SSB radio or sat phone or better both). This line item can get up to $20,000 very easily.

10. Tools and spares. You will need to be ready to fix all kinds of things which can go wrong. Cruising sailboats are not like cars -- turn the key and drive 30,000 miles. Something breaks almost every day. You can't call a mechanic in the middle of the ocean. I'm sure I have over $10,000 worth of tools and spares on board my boat. It's true they've been accumulated for years, but there's not much in there which I would be unwilling to do without on an ocean crossing.

I didn't mention electronics. That's because, other than whatever you're using for long range comms, and some kind of GPS, electronics are not that important once you are out of sight of land. The exception would be radar and AIS, which are great enhancements to watch-keeping, and very good to have, if not absolutely essential.


That enough to think about? You won't have all that much money left out of $220,000 to buy the boat itself. You will not have the luxury of choosing a boat for its cabin layout, natural light or Southern exposure (). If I were you, I would choose a boat based on mostly two things -- size, and condition. The bigger the boat, the faster and more seaworthy it will be, not even to talk about comfort on a really long trip like that. The ideal boat for you will be something 47 to 50 feet, which has just gone through a major refit or rerigging. Let it be ugly, crappy, or plasticky, but with basic systems in really good condition. Work just done by the seller will be a lot cheaper than work you do after purchase, so avoid project boats.
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