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Old 09-01-2006, 17:22   #31
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Pacific Seacraft Financial Condition

I've searched the Web and been unable to find any suggestion that Pacific Seacraft is having financial difficulties. On the contrary, everything that I read suggests that it's doing very well. For example, the following article was published just this past September:

Saga Marine to cease production in Canada
Source: IBI Magazine

Saga Marine, a Canadian manufacturer of high-performance sailing yachts, has announced that it is to outsource its manufacturing to the US after it entered into an agreement with Pacific Seacraft, a US boat builder based in Fullerton, California. According to a company press release, the decision was made as a result of the rising strength of the Canadian dollar, combined with Pacific Seacraft's desire to expand the business.

"The increasing value of the Canadian dollar seriously affected the revenue and was starting to erode margins," says Allan Poole, president of Saga Marine. "Like many Southern Ontario manufacturers, we have had to seek alternative sources. This move allows us to continue providing a high quality product at a good value price."

Pacific Seacraft has been building yachts for nearly 30 years, including its own range of sailboats, powerboats and the Nordhavn 40 trawler on behalf of Pacific Asian Enterprises (PAE). According to Saga, both the Pacific Seacraft and the Saga brands will be supported with a new customer service department in California.

"The move is an important step for our brand and our customers," says Poole. "Pacific Seacraft's legendary quality of build and experience in the industry will ensure that the Saga product continues to enjoy extremely high quality, but it will also maintain the good value that the line has become known for."
Headquartered in St Catharines, Ontario, Saga Marine launched the first of its 13.3m (43ft) cruisers 10 years ago and has since added both a 10.7m (35ft) model and the award-winning Saga 48, all of which were designed by Robert Perry. More recently, Saga added the 12.5m (41ft) Tony Castro-designed 409, which features a Euro-styled deck.

**

If the boat-manufacturing industry is like others, then when a company gets into financial difficulty, it pays its suppliers late. Since these suppliers also sell to the other members of the industry, everyone very quickly hears about a company's problems through the grapevine.

Respectfully, I just can't believe that Saga would now be shifting its entire production to a company that is known to be in trouble.

Does anyone have concrete evidence of a problem at Pacific Seacraft?
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Old 10-01-2006, 14:30   #32
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I wasn't able to find any hint of financial troubles at PSC either so hopefully there isn't a real issue there.

If I was ready to pull the trigger on a boat now it would be either the PSC 44 or Cabo Rico 42.

Curry
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Old 10-01-2006, 15:09   #33
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Old 10-01-2006, 21:09   #34
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Test Sail

Hey Tom,

When I get down to my short list (guessing April time frame just after Oakland) I'm going to try to get a sail in on each boat left on the list. I don't know where you're located but if you want to join me you're welcome. Two potential buyers might also create a little more motivation in some instances.

The Pan
Disclaimer: I'm no expert (but I'm sure someone here will correct me if I go awry :-).

Most production boats, and even some high quality yachts like the Pacific Seacrafts, lay up a GRP "pan" (aka Fiberglass insert) from a mold. The pan mold shapes in the major bulk heads and perhaps some of the furniture. Then they just pop the pan into the completed hull and then fit the deck on last. The benefits of this method are many, including greatly reduced cost and improved consistency (which helps ensure conduit are in the right places, etc.). Some folks glue and glass the pan to the hull all the way around others do minimal tabbing. The pan adds to the structural strength of the hull in most cases so you want this done right! The down side is that it is very hard to get the factory to change anything substantial in these boats.

The traditional approach is to glass in stringers and bulk heads individually or perhaps use a full or partial set of more modular pans. A factory like Cabo Rico does everything with stringers and can handle fairly substantial changes pretty easily. They, of course, only have to pay the labor cost in Costa Rican dollars. Tayana and Passport benefit from the lower labor cost in Asia and do custom work as well. No two Cabo Ricos or Passports are exactly the same in my experience.

One of the criticisms of high volume production boats are the lower standards often seen in the hull to deck joint and the pan attachment. In severe weather these three pieces need to act as one stable structure. If they begin to act independently you will have obvious problems.

Factory Tours
There's no way to look at the most important structural aspects of a completed yacht. Headliners hide the way that the chain plates have been secured, the cabin sole hides the layout of the bilge, etc. Did they run screws right into a cored deck or did they glass in a solid raised base, drill holes sealed with epoxy and bolt to aluminum backing plates? Does the yacht have a bilge that will drain into a deep sump on both tacks or are your clothes in the low locker going to get wet? It's tough to tell on a finished boat and only the most knowledgeable reps can get into much detail.

The factory guys also will teach you things about making boats. I learn a ton each time. Just watching them create a yacht is fascinating. The processes and people involved are also critical. I am 100% convinced that a craftsman can make a true high end voyager with the basics (i.e. EGlass and polyester resin) and a firm having problems could screw up with the best materials money can buy (i.e. Kevlar and epoxy). The navel architect designed the boat but he isn't building it. Does the place have a team that has been working there for 20 years or 10 months? Is the owner dedicated? Few things are more important than the people involved in my mind.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Randy
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Old 10-01-2006, 21:46   #35
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Hey Randy.

That sounds like a nice design. Too bad it's out of my price range. But sounds nice!
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Old 10-01-2006, 23:09   #36
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Thanks for the explanation Randy!

I'd love to take you up on the offer to attend the test sails. I'm in San Jose, but depending on timing I would be willing to travel

Please don't feel obligated after this, if you prefer to be there alone, I understand...but then I want to hear all about it
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Old 10-01-2006, 23:58   #37
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Instead of jumping in first with boat models, maybe a look at how well the crew (and their needs) fit the particular boat would help.

The size, weight and loads on gear increase rather dramatically across the range of sizes you mentioned. Some, but only some, of these issues can be mitigated by the use of power assisted gear.

But there are some items that can't be overcome that way:
-- a large sailbag that is beyond the ability of the smallest crew member to carry.
-- a fully loaded 450 sq ft main and boom whipping across during an accidental jibe.

There is a book by Beth Leonard that talked through a lot of these kinds of details. We sat down with members of our family and worked through those subjects and others... and then went shopping.

It's often a wandering discussion in the begining. But as we built the list of needs/desires, things sure become very focused quickly.
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Old 11-01-2006, 01:15   #38
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Quote:
SailorPaul once whispered in the wind:
Instead of jumping in first with boat models, maybe a look at how well the crew (and their needs) fit the particular boat would help.

The size, weight and loads on gear increase rather dramatically across the range of sizes you mentioned. Some, but only some, of these issues can be mitigated by the use of power assisted gear.

But there are some items that can't be overcome that way:
-- a large sailbag that is beyond the ability of the smallest crew member to carry.
-- a fully loaded 450 sq ft main and boom whipping across during an accidental jibe.

There is a book by Beth Leonard that talked through a lot of these kinds of details. We sat down with members of our family and worked through those subjects and others... and then went shopping.

It's often a wandering discussion in the begining. But as we built the list of needs/desires, things sure become very focused quickly.
Which of Beth's books are you referring to? I just ordered Voyager's handbook. She also wrote Following Seas; A voyage of Discovery and Following Seas Sailing the Globe.
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Old 14-02-2006, 09:41   #39
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I agree with SG!!!!

WOW! Why do you think you need a 45'+ boat that can be easily handled for 2????
I think you would be crazy to buy such a large boat even if it wasn't your first sail boat!!! Do you even know what it costs to maintain such a vessel???? I had I 40' C&C for 7 years and sailed it mostly single-handed. I had to rig her that way which cost big $$$$$. And the upkeep, mooring,insurance,etc. was nuts! Thats why I sold her. Try looking at a well built crusier ...sorry guys but i am not talking about a Hunter, Cat or Ben either!!!!!! Look at a Swan, Tartan ( the older models),Bristol, etc.
I would suggest in the 35'to 38' size as max for your first sail boat. Better yet take some lessons first and select the type of boat you really need!
Cheers, Allan
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Old 15-02-2006, 12:11   #40
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Re: I agree with SG!!!!

Quote:
allan C&C less once whispered in the wind:
WOW! Why do you think you need a 45'+ boat that can be easily handled for 2????
I think you would be crazy to buy such a large boat even if it wasn't your first sail boat!!! Do you even know what it costs to maintain such a vessel???? I had I 40' C&C for 7 years and sailed it mostly single-handed. I had to rig her that way which cost big $$$$$. And the upkeep, mooring,insurance,etc. was nuts! Thats why I sold her. Try looking at a well built crusier ...sorry guys but i am not talking about a Hunter, Cat or Ben either!!!!!! Look at a Swan, Tartan ( the older models),Bristol, etc.
I would suggest in the 35'to 38' size as max for your first sail boat. Better yet take some lessons first and select the type of boat you really need!
Cheers, Allan
Appreciate the advice. I understand the advantages of cost and ease of handling of smaller boats. However, we decided that space is one of the major features we want. We will be staying on the boat for several weeks a year and 2-3 continuous months during sabbaticals. We will also have friends joining us. I don't have the time to work on an older boat to bring it up. That's why my preference is for newer boats. I love some of the old Swan's, but after reading some stories, even with a surveyor, things can deteriorate quickily after. Give me some credit here... I've taken plenty of lessons and sailed on and off for many years. I'm not that dumb to buy any size sailboat without knowing what I'm doing or what I want.

Cheers.
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Old 16-02-2006, 07:21   #41
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Not sayin your dumb!!!

Sorry I wasn't saying your dumb!
But I still think that any6 45 foot or larger boat is too much for ANY crew of 2 to handle. Unless you keep her moored all the time.
Since space seems to be your highest priority then perhaps you should look into a multihull...a Cat! They have much more space than a mono and are great for entertaining.
Other option might be to buy a condo in the caribbean/south and purchase a sail boat to day sail...or hire a crew!

Good luck, Allan
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Old 16-02-2006, 08:10   #42
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Re: Not sayin your dumb!!!

Quote:
allan C&C less once whispered in the wind:
Sorry I wasn't saying your dumb!
But I still think that any 45 foot or larger boat is too much for ANY crew of 2 to handle. Unless you keep her moored all the time.

<deleted text>

Good luck, Allan
Allan,

My wife and I sail [we are middle aged] a 1985 Moody 47 all 30,000 lbs of her. Been doing it on this boat for 5 years and leaving this year to go cruising.

We take the boat out by ourselves in all conditions [OK no Hurricanes ] I disagree big time that a experienced crew of 2 can not handle a large boat. Sure we can. Does the boat need to be rigged right - you bet!. Just cause you don't want to deal with all that a larger boat entails does not mean it can't be done or isn't done by those that can and want to.

Now would I put a novice crew on a boat like ours - NO WAY. To safely sail a large boat you need to know what to do and when to do it.
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Old 16-02-2006, 14:18   #43
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Re: Not sayin your dumb!!!

Quote:
allan C&C less once whispered in the wind:
Sorry I wasn't saying your dumb!
But I still think that any6 45 foot or larger boat is too much for ANY crew of 2 to handle. Unless you keep her moored all the time.
Since space seems to be your highest priority then perhaps you should look into a multihull...a Cat! They have much more space than a mono and are great for entertaining.
Other option might be to buy a condo in the caribbean/south and purchase a sail boat to day sail...or hire a crew!

Good luck, Allan
No worries, I know you didn't. Although I must admit that I've made poor decisions at times, I'm hoping not to repeat them.
The multihull route is an option. I chartered a couple during vacations to the BVI's and we've decided to charter another cat in Baja this May. I like the space, but I do prefer to sail a monohull.

I guess time will tell...

cheers.
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Old 16-02-2006, 16:06   #44
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here we go again! LOL

To John D: Look I understand where you are coming from. I sailed single-handed in the Caribbean in a C&C 40'. Even survived some huricanes!!!! I was younger, but not wiser! LOL. Yah you or Redbull or anyone else can get lucky and not need a crew at all. What I am saying is a boat over 45' is a lot to handle for just 2 !!!
I know your sailing skills are far superior to mine. Bigger isn't always better or safer, but that's just my opinion!

To Redbull: I too have looked into multi's. Even sailed/delivered one from St. Martin to St. Lucia (50') I came very close to buying one. But I found out from my own experience at the helm that cats don't handle like monos in the ruff stuff!And if well loaded they perform poorly and can be dangerous. But I do appreciate their speed in light winds!!!
I believe that in time multi technology will develop and produce a much better vessel than what is available today!

All the best, Allan
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:20   #45
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Hear, hear for the smaller boats!

We have a Pierson 10m and absolutely love it! Granted we are thinking of going to a 42 4 simply for space. Ours is perfect for two but the darn kids keep wanting to com!
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