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Old 02-01-2006, 20:12   #16
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Quick question for you guys...how much validaty do these sailing formula's have? like displacement length ratio, sail area displacement ratio, sail area wetting surface area, stability and GZ curve.
They are nice if ya can afford them:

My boat don't fit none of them formulas, yet she is a good boat for me..

There ain't no perfect formula out there...
Boats, cars, planes and bimbos, they are all a compromise.

What is good for ya may not fit the formula, but if it feels good, go for it.
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Old 02-01-2006, 20:18   #17
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I agree with CSYman. I read once that you will know if it is right for you the moment you set foot on it. I have had that feeling twice, One was the Valiant 50 and the other was on the boat I now have. Go to some big boat show and look them over for a couple of days, you will find the right one.
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Old 03-01-2006, 00:38   #18
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Thanks...that's what I suspected.
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Old 05-01-2006, 14:09   #19
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Hi Tom,

My wife and I have similar criteria. We don't have what I would call a short list yet but if I had to put one together prematurely it would include:

Cabo Rico 45
Valiant 50
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 44
Hallberg Rassy 48
Malo 46
Hylas 46

(listed as most conservative to least conservative)

Let us know how your search progresses.
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Old 05-01-2006, 14:50   #20
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Hmm, if I had to choose from that list, I would go for the HR 48.

Have heard nothing but good things about those boats, and they are proven off-shore boats in every respect.

Not sure what Pacific Seacraft are up to these days, recently they were almost bankrupt, and yer deposit could go up in smoke...Not good.
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Old 05-01-2006, 17:10   #21
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I love all those boat listed and most are on my wish list as well. My biggest complaint with the HR is all the teak on deck. I just don't want that much "extra" work.

I wasn't aware of Pacific Seacraft's financial troubles. Any idea where I can find more info about that.

Shannon has some pretty nice boats to consider as well.

Curry
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Old 05-01-2006, 19:22   #22
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I wasn't aware of Pacific Seacraft's financial troubles. Any idea where I can find more info about that.
Not really, my stuff is inside information...
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Old 05-01-2006, 19:44   #23
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Tom, time to do some SERIOUS research. Start sailing on some differnt boats until you find what you like. Check your PM.
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Old 05-01-2006, 23:29   #24
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RandyAbernethy once whispered in the wind:
Hi Tom,

My wife and I have similar criteria. We don't have what I would call a short list yet but if I had to put one together prematurely it would include:

Cabo Rico 45
Valiant 50
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 44
Hallberg Rassy 48
Malo 46
Hylas 46

(listed as most conservative to least conservative)

Let us know how your search progresses.
Hi,

Looks like we share the Cabo, Valiant, Hallberg Rassy and Hylas. I also have the Island Packet and Amel on my radar screen. I'm still adding and subtracting boats every week.
I wish the boat show in Oakland had more representation from the manufacturers I want to see. It's not looking too promising.

Take care,
Tom
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Old 07-01-2006, 00:28   #25
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Thumbs up

Looks like Hylas will be in Oakland with the 46'er. SWEET
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:10   #26
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Another choice?

Have you looked at a Gozzard? It may fit within your short-list?
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Old 07-01-2006, 12:50   #27
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Re: Another choice?

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leeway once whispered in the wind:
Have you looked at a Gozzard? It may fit within your short-list?
Hi,

No I haven't, but I'll check into it. Thanks for the lead.

Take care!
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Old 08-01-2006, 23:15   #28
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You might want to consider Tayana's. They seem to fit your criteria nicely.
Good luck with the search...let the fun begin!
John
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Old 09-01-2006, 13:58   #29
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Just got back from the Seattle boat show and saw quite a few boats. Heading to the Miami show in Feb (and then chartering an Island Packet in the VI because the IP445 is on our B list). Hope to make a decision after the Oakland show in April. My wife and I are fine with fixing stuff but I want to avoid fixing a lot of things all at once, or constantly, so we've decided to stay with new construction or something used less than 5 years.

It's tough picking a voyaging yacht. Other than the Island Packet (which isn't easy to charter) it is almost impossible to charter a sound long distance cruiser. Most of the owners tend to be out enjoying the boats on the bounding main and the factories and dealers don't have them laying around the lot. Very hard to get a test sail. The marinas are filled with French and American production boats. Would love to get suggestions here (how to get a day sail in on a modern voyager). Most factories will try to get you on a boat but you need to be ready to buy. I would prefer to sail on as many as possible to help form my opinions.

About Hallberg Rassy, I am a little torn with this make. Many things I really like and it has a great rep. Unfortunately they will do little or no customization. I will be staying between 30 degrees and 30 degrees. Teak gets hot and it's work to care for (all the die hard teak guys will deny this, I think they do it in their sleep). I want a non skid glass deck and stainless outside of the shaded cockpit. I also want the benefit of eliminating the weight up high. From what I can tell HR will not delete the teak. Also I was very surprised to find the cabin sole panels don't lock down. They also do not use tinned wire. HR is making about 160 boats a year and you will probably be in 2008 for delivery if you order now.

Still looking forward to seeing a Hylas 46 and 49 first hand. Kyle showed me around the new 70 and I was impressed. They have had some issues with their rudders being a little fragile, one or two came apart in the Caribbean 1500 (Frers erring a little too far on the performance side for a fast cruiser). They have offered to replace them free of charge with a beefier setup. This is what you want to see from a company.

Tayana will do custom stuff and the price is right but I know they have had a range of quality in the past (from very good to ok). Haven't reconciled how to manage QA on new construction happening in Taiwan.

I've been to the Pacific Seacraft factory twice now and they seem to be doing fine. They make the standard sailboats culminating in the 44 as well as a Trawler (they made the first batch of Nordhaven 40s until Nordhaven relocated to Asia) and they're making the Saga 409 now as well. They have no less than 8 boats in the pipe that I know of. I can't see behind the scenes though and would love to know if there are current problems. The Crealock 44 seems like a great voyager.

My factory visits have been really valuable and I would recommend this kind of tour to anyone looking to buy new construction. I plan to visit the Island Packet factory while at the Miami show and Ifm working toward a Valiant tour as well. From my experience any factory worth its salt will welcome you.

I would get insurance or a bank guarantee on any large deposits no matter who the vender is. It is well worth the money and the rate you are quoted tells a tale of its own. For instance, of the big three Orst makers (Hallberg Rassy, Naiad and Malo), the smallest, Malo, has the best credit rating and is the cheapest to get a delivery guarantee bond on.

Last I checked Amel only made a 53' ketch. My wife and I really love some of the 50'+ boats we've looked at (like the Hylas 54) but for double handing it just seems like we'll have more fun and things will be more manageable on a 45 - 48'er. Anchoring, fending off, managing big wind and seas all gets a little more exerting and tricky with the step up in size. You can go push button but for me you lose some of the fun. More important you come to depend on things that may not function when you need them. We also are happy to trade lower power requirements and maintenance overhead for staying in shape using our own muscles (where sensible). Another problem with breaking 50' is the rig height. We want to stay ICW friendly and most things 50'+ will go over the magic 65' air draft number. Large slips can be harder to come by as well.

From my research the Shannons are great boats. I have decided to stay away from centerboards (although I know many folks love them) and I think that's all they make these days.

I have been impressed by Passport yachts recently. Passport, Tayana, Valiant, Malo and Cabo Rico will all do customization on the interior for you. Most of the others use a pan insert and can't deviate much. Still others just make too many boats to fool around with special orders.

The one thing that I have found to be universally true is that there is a huge range of knowledge (from totally ignorant, to "why isn't this guy a navel architect?") out there in the yacht sales arena. You really have to do you own homework to sort it out.
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Old 09-01-2006, 16:35   #30
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Hi Randy,

Sounds like you have really been doing your homework and comparing many makes. I am way behind you in my search, but have picked up on the same trend about being able to find the same boat to try out. If you are lucky enough, I really don't like the expectation that after the sail you'll automatically put money down. I need to sail all, and then compare. Not compare, sail one and buy. I understand the builders and brokers p.o.v. about wasted time, some level of risk to the boat, etc...but they need to understand our's too.

In regards to HR; I haven't given wiring much thought, but it's susrprising that HR would skimp. It's still probably type 3 wiring? Was this a newer boat that you saw?

It's a bit surprising that Malo would be the lower risk builder. Any idea what other factors contribute towards the assessment besides credit rating?

Quick question...what is a pan insert? I'm not familiar with the term.

I'm VERY curious how your factory tours went. Would you mind sharing some of your experiences and takeaways?

Take care,
Tom

See you in Oakland!
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