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Old 13-05-2013, 05:17   #31
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

The above should say the 60 watt solar panel will put out 5 amps and power all my 12 volt equipment (from the (2) 12 volt batteries in parallel): lights, depth, autopilot, GPS (2), bilge pump,etc. The batteries are also hooked to an 850 watt inverter that powers my drip coffee pot, fan,and charges or powers my lap top and cell phone. All this for about $100. Of course, I am usually not running everything at once.

The panel is hooked up to charge both batteries simultaneously. There is no generator to have to fuel up and listen to etc.

As far as outboards, they can put your boat anywhere if mounted on a bracket on the stern but an IB diesel is certainly preferable if it's in really good shape......
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Old 13-05-2013, 06:25   #32
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Keep in mind also that an outboards prop is going to leave the water in chop in a 20 something footer sooner than if that same boat had an inboard.
Not just "sooner." WAAAAY sooner!

Having had a boat just like this, I would say this is the big problem. In any kind of rough conditions it is hard to keep the outboard prop down in the water. Maybe less of a problem on boats that have an outboard well. But I had a long-shaft motor, and a swing down bracket on the transom, and the prop would still pop free of the water sometimes--and, of course, it was always at the very WORST of times.

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get that outboard as deep in the water as you can...
Yes, but not TOO deep. Set it down far enough and it can get flooded if you are trying to use it in a following sea.

The fact is that the 25-inch "long shaft" outboards that they recommend for sailboats just aren't long-shafted enough. At least for the San Juan 23 that I used to have, something like a 35" shaft would have been much better. Then I could have mounted it high enough to keep the engine dry, while having the prop low enough to stay in the water. But such a beast does not exist.
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Old 13-05-2013, 07:26   #33
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Not just "sooner." WAAAAY sooner!

Having had a boat just like this, I would say this is the big problem. In any kind of rough conditions it is hard to keep the outboard prop down in the water. Maybe less of a problem on boats that have an outboard well. But I had a long-shaft motor, and a swing down bracket on the transom, and the prop would still pop free of the water sometimes--and, of course, it was always at the very WORST of times.


Yes, but not TOO deep. Set it down far enough and it can get flooded if you are trying to use it in a following sea.

The fact is that the 25-inch "long shaft" outboards that they recommend for sailboats just aren't long-shafted enough. At least for the San Juan 23 that I used to have, something like a 35" shaft would have been much better. Then I could have mounted it high enough to keep the engine dry, while having the prop low enough to stay in the water. But such a beast does not exist.
Keep in mind though that some brackets only have limited vertical travel. Some as little as 8"-9". Also, check out some of these bracket mounts next time you get the chance. Some are mounted at the top of the stern, they are mounted sideways. You name it, you can find a bracket mounted that way.

My bracket is near the bottom of the stern. The Panther Bracket I have has 14" of vertical travel. The outboard has the 25" extra long shaft. When out of the water the prop is touching the top third of the same horizantal plane as the IB prop (if still mounted).
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Old 13-05-2013, 08:56   #34
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Keep in mind though that some brackets only have limited vertical travel. Some as little as 8"-9". Also, check out some of these bracket mounts next time you get the chance. Some are mounted at the top of the stern, they are mounted sideways. You name it, you can find a bracket mounted that way.

My bracket is near the bottom of the stern. The Panther Bracket I have has 14" of vertical travel. The outboard has the 25" extra long shaft. When out of the water the prop is touching the top third of the same horizantal plane as the IB prop (if still mounted).
In other words, the prop on the outboard is at about the same depth as the prop on the inboard diesel used to be.
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Old 13-05-2013, 18:05   #35
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Good to know thomm. Thank you.

Went and checked out the islander in person for the first time today. I like the boat. Needs a little tlc. Sanding and re vanishing mostly. Nice looking canvas. Didn't pull out the sails but they are supposed to be in really nice shape. Sounds like the guy will take luckless than the asking price too which is a plus.
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Old 14-05-2013, 00:16   #36
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

The depth of the prop does not tell the full story: the further aft the prop is situated, the deeper it needs to be, because the boat throws the stern higher than a point further forward when pitching: it pivots about a horizontal axis very roughly midway back from the bow.

This is made considerably worse by the waterplane not being flat, but humped: when a wave crest is close inboard of the stern, it's hard for even a long shaft outboard hung off the transom to reach solid water, especially if the motor is offset and the boat is heeling.

If your bracket drops the motor to counteract this, you run the risk of swamping it in the reverse situation.
It's pretty manageable in big seas on a 20 yacht with a long shaft motor, but it gets progressively worse as the boat size increases.

I would recommend against a MacGregor 26 if you have any interest in sailing. Some of the earlier MacGregor's are supposed to be a more worthwhile proposition, but I don't have first hand experience.
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Old 14-05-2013, 05:19   #37
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
The depth of the prop does not tell the full story: the further aft the prop is situated, the deeper it needs to be, because the boat throws the stern higher than a point further forward when pitching: it pivots about a horizontal axis very roughly midway back from the bow.

This is made considerably worse by the waterplane not being flat, but humped: when a wave crest is close inboard of the stern, it's hard for even a long shaft outboard hung off the transom to reach solid water, especially if the motor is offset and the boat is heeling.

If your bracket drops the motor to counteract this, you run the risk of swamping it in the reverse situation.
It's pretty manageable in big seas on a 20 yacht with a long shaft motor, but it gets progressively worse as the boat size increases.

I would recommend against a MacGregor 26 if you have any interest in sailing. Some of the earlier MacGregor's are supposed to be a more worthwhile proposition, but I don't have first hand experience.
All true but the setup on my Bristol 27 is working rather well. (and) The Bristol 27 and boats similar are the worst for outboard mounting with the sterns they have. Also, where my boat is as soon as you leave the creek you are in the open bay.

Sunday we had a dying North Wind which had created these short, close 4'+ waves. You can imagine what a pain that is. After the wind stopped, I motored in and the outboard did fine. Even when it goings low in the water, it's okay because it isn't down there that long.

The options are as follows on there old boats:

fix the old, smelly, leaky diesel you have which is probably old and weak. (mine was a 350lb Bukh Westerbeake 10hp)

buy a new diesel at a cost of around $6,500 plus install

get a new 4 stroke outboard 4-6hp (weighing around 55lbs) and bracket for around $1200-$1500 which won't be perfect but will be fine 95% of the time. And if you are offshore (as in the ocean), it should actually work better since the waves are not so close together.

and lastly you could mount that outboard in the aft lazaretter locker but then you'd have the drag........

The problem is how much money do you want to put into an old boat.
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Old 14-05-2013, 06:06   #38
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

I have owned and cruised a Pearson Ariel with an outboard in a well for years. I like, and highly recommend this arrangement.

When you read this post, please note that the design is an outboard in a well.
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Another outboard conversion on a Vega that circumnavigated on a westward route from the Netherlands to Brazil, Argentina, Chile (rounding the South American continent via Beagle channel), Pacific ocean, Sydney, East coast of Australia, Darwin, Mauritius, South Africa, St Helena to the Caribbiean. Currently he is sailing eastwards on the north Atlantic to reach his home country in June. (SY Rebellion - Home)

Yamaha Enduro 8hp longtail (2009) -- "I replaced the inboard engine with an outboard, much lighter and easier to maintain. Not to mention more storage space and clean bilges! I built a well so the prop stays underwater even in confused seas. Only regret I have is not having done this earlier. The fuel tank sits in an airtight locker so fumes stay out of the boat." He also mentions elsewhere the advantage of using the same outboard for his Zodiac 310.
You are really having two different conversations when you talk about having an outboard in a well verses hanging off of the transom.

The well is far superior in terms of handling, not having the prop come out of the water, and security.... The disadvantage, and reason no one builds them any more is that they take up space inside the lifelines.

Worthwhile trade off IMHO.
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Old 14-05-2013, 06:09   #39
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

The authority on the subject is James Baldwin. He has "gone around" a couple times and has an excellent write up on the outboard in a well here...

Atom Voyages - Outboard motor well for a Taipan 28 sailboat
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Old 14-05-2013, 07:11   #40
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
I have owned and cruised a Pearson Ariel with an outboard in a well for years. I like, and highly recommend this arrangement.

When you read this post, please note that the design is an outboard in a well.

You are really having two different conversations when you talk about having an outboard in a well verses hanging off of the transom.

The well is far superior in terms of handling, not having the prop come out of the water, and security.... The disadvantage, and reason no one builds them any more is that they take up space inside the lifelines.

Worthwhile trade off IMHO.
The Atom Voyages site is why I am sailing a Bristol 27.

Btw, did you " build-in" your outboard well or was your boat already that way when you bought it?

Baldwin is building his wells so the engine can come up in a slot. Is yours like that?

I thought I saw some pictures of your boat on another site. It's been totally restored right?
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Old 14-05-2013, 09:50   #41
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

The thing to remember if you build your own well is that is needs proper ventilation or the motor will chock out and and die, and just at the wrong time. I've seen some of theses well motors so covered with soot that one wouldn't even want to touch the thing.

I've even seen some with a vent hose attached to the hood just so they can get enough air b/c the cover shut off all air access above and the water sealed off the air below.
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Old 14-05-2013, 11:21   #42
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

We have a boat with a similar stern to the Bristol 27 (Cape Dory 27) and are currently using a transom mount. It works -OK-, but we definitely have issues where it comes out of the water and we haven't even ventured offshore yet. I can set it down pretty deep, so when it starts to pop out of the water, I'll knock it down another notch (we have 5, the lowest I've been is 2nd from last). We beat into the wind for 7 hours with it the other day with 20kt gusts and it did fine.

I really like the idea of building a well, but I'm a little nervous about doing it. The idea of dropping $8k on a 35 year old boat to put a diesel in makes me uneasy, but I want to take the right path vs what's easiest or cheapest. The outboard well would definitely make us more inclined to keep the outboard in place for good, but it seems like major surgery that I'm not sure I'm qualified for.

Those of you with wells, I'd love to see photographs of the well to get ideas, if you don't mind. I'm also curious what you did about ventilation, fuel storage, and water drainage inside of the well.
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Old 14-05-2013, 11:26   #43
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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We have a boat with a similar stern to the Bristol 27 (Cape Dory 27) and are currently using a transom mount. It works -OK-, but we definitely have issues where it comes out of the water and we haven't even ventured offshore yet. I can set it down pretty deep, so when it starts to pop out of the water, I'll knock it down another notch (we have 5, the lowest I've been is 2nd from last). We beat into the wind for 7 hours with it the other day with 20kt gusts and it did fine.

I really like the idea of building a well, but I'm a little nervous about doing it. The idea of dropping $8k on a 35 year old boat to put a diesel in makes me uneasy, but I want to take the right path vs what's easiest or cheapest. The outboard well would definitely make us more inclined to keep the outboard in place for good, but it seems like major surgery that I'm not sure I'm qualified for.

Those of you with wells, I'd love to see photographs of the well to get ideas, if you don't mind. I'm also curious what you did about ventilation, fuel storage, and water drainage inside of the well.
Check out the photos above under s/v Faith's post. It's from the Atom Voyages site. Your boat is also on his small voyaging boat list.

I wonder what it would cost for a company that does fiberglass repair to build a well in these type boats?
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Old 14-05-2013, 11:34   #44
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Check out the photos above under S/V Faiths post. It's from the Atom Voyages site. Your boat is also on his small voyaging boat list.

I wonder what it would cost for a company that does fiberglass repair to build a well in these type boats?
Ya, I've seen those, I guess I was just looking for pics from other folks to get ideas Thanks though. So far their post/pics seem to be the goto resource on the matter.

Regarding having someone else do the work, I've often wonder the same thing. I've done some fiberglass work myself, but nothing structural and as exposed as a well would be. I suppose I'm a little nervous because I saw another CD27 with a botched job.

I also wonder if I could create a mount for a gas generator in the same location to keep the noise/gas/fumes in a central location.
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Old 14-05-2013, 12:39   #45
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Re: advantage/disadvantage of outboard motor.

A lot of depend on issues:
- If you are talking about an older 2stroke, it probably is less reliable. We have a modern fuel injected 4stroke with close to 1000hrs of almost maintenence free reliability. Electric start for convienence but the option to pull start if the batteries die.
- It has to have a good setup for an outboard. Bolting a motor on where it was never designed to be will likely not produce good results. If it was designed for an outboard, it should be fine.

Pros:
- Any mechanic will be familiar as the locals always use outboards.
- Can be removed by someone of limited technical skills and taken to a shop.
- Most owners are more familiar with gas engines.
- Easier to find replacement parts
- Initial cost is approx 1/3 of a diesel inboard.
- Annual maintenance costs are approx 1/4.
- Saves interior space.
- Starts with a dead 12v system.
- Heat, odors and fluid spills are kept out of the cabin.

Cons:
- No engine water heating (use a solar show if you are in the carribean).
- Limited to low amp power output (on a small simple boat, you probalby don't need a lot and a 1000w honda will be far more efficent and still cheaper than running an inboard for power)
- Fuel efficency (With a modern 4stroke, this is actually a fairly small difference).

I would suggest if possible find a boat that allows the outboard to steer. We can manuver with twin engine boats because we can use the vectored thrust of the outboard.
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