A Poll: Sale/Resale of electric powered sailboats

[DocRox]

Love to hear a Surveyors take on this question.

[grjfield]

I went with over 100%...but I expect I'm in the minority. I recently converted to Electric and I love it. I expect the market will slowly embrace electric as lithium prices goes down and systems like Oceanvolt and Electric Yacht gain a reputation for reliability.
I still have a diesel on board..but have no plans to reconnect.
For the record ...recently plunked down $1000 for a reservation on a Tesla Model 3...so yes..I guess I'm an electric bigot!

[Cheechako]

I like the idea of electric or hybrid. But I just feel lithium batteries are way too iffy for use in a boat. Fire on a boat is like the worst case scenario... you can die 1/4 mile from land. I know the odds are fairly low, but there are plenty of fires. Speaking of Tesla , one was on the news last week... burned up from a battery fire. I think that may have been the first. But at least in a car, you can just get out!

[grjfield]

Good point...fire is always a concern! and the early Lithium Ion batteries were suspect. I would suggest that lithium iron phosphate battery technology has progressed in the last few years and the current lithium battery is much safer.

Having said that, both gas and diesel are of course not without their own fire concerns.

I realize I'm on the 'bleeding edge' by going electric but I truly think its the future of propulsion (land and sea). Only time will tell. In the meantime, it was a great project to undertake ....and so far, I'm getting a real charge out of it!!! lol sorry..couldnt resist...

[Cheechako]

Maybe you should ask Boeing about the newest technology batteries! Weight is very crucial in life fuel usage, so they value removing an ounce in design at something like tens of thousands of $. That's their incentive. But they have had plenty of problems with the new batteries. I have the feeling it just leaves you with a very fine line to walk with super complicated equipment to manage the system on that fine line. They have to make it work. Not sure on a boat you must though.
But then... I'm pretty old school!

[grjfield]

Fortunately my striped out sailboat is less complicated than an airplane so its not the weight trade off I'm focused on. I can always remove some lead if need be. For now, I'm willing be bet on the current lithiums for their DOD and cycles.
I once had a car fire in my 76 MGB. It had a strong battery but somehow a wire frayed, shorted and melted a whack of wires. Luckily I happened to rip out the right bundle so saved the car..albeit giving myself a PITA job of rewiring! I guess my point is that all our boats (and cars) have batteries and I suspect the chance of bad wiring hooked up to any type of battery can cause a fire. The battery is but one component to be concerned about.

I consider myself old school as well when it comes to sailing..the simpler the better... I dont know why I'm new school when it comes to motors. Probably onset of early something!

Have a good one!

[Mystic38]

I am included in the general marketplace, and hence my preference is a data point

I understand your reply, however your poll is fundamentally flawed if you are attempting to truly establish a valuation...

For example, if you ask me for the value of a cup of coffee when i want a glass of water then the value of a cup of coffee is quite low.. this is what your poll has asked.

To better develop a more viable understanding you should identify the segment size by asking an independent pre-cursor question of :

"would you consider to purchase and use an electric powered vessel"

Then, to collect data from the wealth of folks here, change the value question to be...

"assuming that you would consider to purchase and use an electric powered sailboat, etc..etc..

To fail to grasp the relative segment size of the electric powered sailboat market would result in any derived valuation being skewed much higher than would be seen in practice.. as, with a much smaller segment of potential customers, one of two things would happen..

a) Sailboat is listed for a very long time, resulting in price erosion,
or,
b) A motivated seller would significantly discount the vessel to attract a buyer who would consider a diesel conversion (as stated by one poster previously)

regards

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

Mystic, thanks for the reply, understood - but allow me to clarify that I am actually after the forum's opinions as to the general marketplace (rather than one's personal preference).

I happen to like the idea of electric, but part of the decision is what the marketplace says is a fair value. I'm pretty sure electrics - in general - will have a lower value/sale/resale price than a diesel, the question seems to be how much.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, thanks...

[Juho]

Some reasons that lower the price:
- smaller market, means that it takes longer time to find the interested buyers
- max power probably lower than in diesel
- max time to operate (with high power) probably lower than in diesel
- if energy comes from a battery, recharging will take time
- diesel engines are more expensive than electrical engines (unless with lots of batteries)
- old technology is likely to be more reliable

I would be interested if ...
- I could have electric power in addition to diesel power
- diesel electric systems could be useful too, but traditional diesel may still be more reliable
- for a lightweight coastal boat for entry to harbour
- when technology gets better

[grjfield]

See comments below ..

Some reasons that lower the price:
- smaller market, means that it takes longer time to find the interested buyers
Agreed
- max power probably lower than in diesel
depends on motor size
- max time to operate (with high power) probably lower than in diesel
Agreed - restricted by AMPHRs if no panels or genset
- if energy comes from a battery, recharging will take time
Agreed however most plug in when back in slip (easier than refueling)
- diesel engines are more expensive than electrical engines (unless with lots of batteries)
This is a plus for electric..correct?
- old technology is likely to be more reliable
This is a plus for electric..correct? Electric motors much more reliable and maintenance free

Some reasons that increase the price:
Quicker/More reliable to start
More torque at lower speeds
Instant max power if needed
No diesel fuel/tank required
Less noise, smoke
Less space required, no oil in bilge (I love my clean bilge.)
Ability to charge up using solar, wind, shorepower, genset, or prop.


I would be interested if ...
- I could have electric power in addition to diesel power
range anxiety is the first hurdle to address
- diesel electric systems could be useful too, but traditional diesel may still be more reliable
I would debate whether diesel is more reliable. I have had water pump seal leaks, starting issues.
Diesels are not perfect and require much more maintenance than an electric motor.
- for a lightweight coastal boat for entry to harbour
perfect application for electric
- when technology gets better
If a better motor comes along, I can undo 8 bolts, lift out motor (by myself) and replace with newest for much less than a new diesel. Current Electronic controllers seem to be quite good.


My advice would be to go for a sail with an electric and experience the difference.
Its not for everyone but it may be perfect for you.

[Kalinowski]

Electric propulsion has been around a long time. Today's manufacturers have proven products. The recent development of flexible solar "film" actually mounted on sail material is presently being sold through UK sails. The generation and storage technology is rapidly developing as shown by the tremendous demand for the Tesla. Diesel will follow the path of steam.

[Racer86]

For me, next boat is a cataraman , I would love to have a Diesel engine that supplies electrical power to the boat and hydraulic power to dual hydraulic motors to each hull. Of course, solar panels to help charge a decent battery backup storage system. My dream boat would include a sail drives, type drive system that could be raised totally out of the water. And this system would be sized to deliver real horsepower to the boat Like the Toytota Prius, hybrids are a real working solution that is available today, and works. Maybe steal the battery pack and electronic's from a Prius. Seems to me they have a horsepower equivent to about 140 horsepower. More than most large catamarans have today with diesel power.
So my answer is yes to electric sailboats but only with current tech, not just an electric motor and dumb batteries.

[steve0h]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I like the idea of electric or hybrid. But I just feel lithium batteries are way too iffy for use in a boat. Fire on a boat is like the worst case scenario... you can die 1/4 mile from land. I know the odds are fairly low, but there are plenty of fires. Speaking of Tesla , one was on the news last week... burned up from a battery fire. I think that may have been the first. But at least in a car, you can just get out!

I take it you have never heard of the AFFO - Association of Flaming Ford Owners.

[Capn Jimbo]

Thanks for the many interesting points of view. Up spirits. Still, I am always amazed at how a thread quickly wanders. In this case I was not interested in personal preference, battery types, or "data points" as one poster put it.

Perhaps the fault is mine. I was looking for the forum's experience as to general opinions about the marketplace in general, and all things being equal otherwise, the electric resale penalty in getting a good and relatively prompt sale.

There's no doubt in my mind that the marketplace will discount the electric based on a multiplicity of factors - fewer prospectives, less understanding, lack of confidence, insuitability for the task, etc. I suspect the votes are simply those of the voter's personal preference, rather than a vote for the observed general marketplace. Accordingly, I decided to eliminate the 100% and the more than 100% votes; ergo the average is interesting:

Eliminating the 3-100% votes: 37%
Including the 3-100% votes: 58%

(Note: I counted the "less than 50%" as being 40% votes)

Average these and you get 50%, which oddly enough mirrors the general marketplace for all-electric cars. A couple of recent studies showed resale of the all-electric Nissan Leaf suffered a 50% penalty when compared to a similar gas-powered Nissan.

Interesting, eh? Oh, and let me guess: we will now discuss the failure of insufficient data points, and simplistic market analysis, lol...

[Racer86]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

Thanks for the many interesting points of view. Up spirits. Still, I am always amazed at how a thread quickly wanders. In this case I was not interested in personal preference, battery types, or "data points" as one poster put it.

Perhaps the fault is mine. I was looking for the forum's experience as to general opinions about the marketplace in general, and all things being equal otherwise, the electric resale penalty in getting a good and relatively prompt sale.

There's no doubt in my mind that the marketplace will discount the electric based on a multiplicity of factors - fewer prospectives, less understanding, lack of confidence, insuitability for the task, etc. I suspect the votes are simply those of the voter's personal preference, rather than a vote for the observed general marketplace. Accordingly, I decided to eliminate the 100% and the more than 100% votes; ergo the average is interesting:

Eliminating the 3-100% votes: 37%
Including the 3-100% votes: 58%

(Note: I counted the "less than 50%" as being 40% votes)

Average these and you get 50%, which oddly enough mirrors the general marketplace for all-electric cars. A couple of recent studies showed resale of the all-electric Nissan Leaf suffered a 50% penalty when compared to a similar gas-powered Nissan.

Interesting, eh? Oh, and let me guess: we will now discuss the failure of insufficient data points, and simplistic market analysis, lol...

So build one and sell it and get back to us with the sales results.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by grjfield

See comments below ..

> depends on motor size

My guess was that on average electric installations are still typically on the small side because of some limitations of batteries, wiring and off grid electricity generation.

> This is a plus for electric..correct?

Yes, low price is motor is a plus. But a low price motor means also lower price for the electric boat when compared to a diesel boat. (excluding battery considerations here)

> This is a plus for electric..correct? Electric motors much more reliable and maintenance free

Yes, electric motors are probably more reliable. But building a complete new system (motor wiring, batteries, charging systems, control) introduces some risk factors that potential buyers might be afraid of. That general lack of trust could lower the price even if in real life electric sailboat propulsion systems would already be more reliable.

> Some reasons that increase the price:

All valid potential reasons. There could be also some valid usability and preference arguments supporting diesel engines, like ability to carry extra energy in jerry cans and smaller need of heavy batteries.

> Diesels are not perfect and require much more maintenance than an electric motor.

Yes, but many sailors are familiar with diesel motors, and used to the maintenance work that they need, so they tend to rely on them.

> If a better motor comes along, I can undo 8 bolts, lift out motor (by myself) and replace with newest for much less than a new diesel. Current Electronic controllers seem to be quite good.

I'd like to have some new (light weight) fuel cell technology that would make it possible to store any amount of energy onboard and quickly generate large amounts of electricity. That could be the end of diesel motors onboard.