Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-08-2012, 11:53   #1
Registered User
 
NotJustDreaming's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada)
Boat: boatless
Posts: 99
A Lesson in Boat Buying

Hello everyone,

I’m not sure if this is appropriate or allowed on CF but I’ll give it a shot.

On yachtworld there is a 2006 47’ Beneteau Oceanis for sale. $139,000. I think it’s a Sunsail coming out of charter. Based in the BVI. Actually, there are several in this price range.

I’ll try inserting the link here but the YW# is 77108-2349703 in case I can’t figure out how to do it. Her name is Teranga.

Hopefully this link workd....

2006 Beneteau Oceanis 473 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It’s a good fit for our family right now. Four cabin version. Probably one too many heads but all five of us would be pretty comfortable.

So…

Say I was thinking about buying this type of boat. Put aside the fact that it is an ex-charter boat as well as the fact that we haven’t seen it. We’re far from an inspection at this point. I would like some input as to what to consider when we’re looking. Or rather, say you were thinking about buying it…

I’m wondering about what you think in terms of:

the asking price for what it is
what upgrades/replacements we’d need right away to make it ready for cruising in the Caribbean (i.e. rigging is original but I understand usually needs to be replaced every 10 years or so; main and genoa were replaced in 2011; electronics are original so when should I expect to have to replace them)
what you think of the existing equipment for the size of boat (i.e. 75 hp Yanmar with 4230 hours as of 5/11; ground tackle is two Delta’s – doesn’t specify all chain or rope and chain – probably the latter since it is BVI; tankage for fuel and water for five people; stuff like that
what additional equipment we’d need to purchase (i.e. dinghy and outboard, liferaft etc) as I think a charter boat is pretty basic as far as equipment goes but what do I know
if you have ballpark price estimates for all that, that would be awesome but just a bonus

Essentially I’d like to know what you’d be picking out of a listing when you’re trying to narrow down your search and the things you’d be considering essential to add/fix/replace right away.

And maybe your recommendation as to what boat type we should consider in lieu of the Beneteau. Although this is in the low end of our price range, I get excited about saving money and if it fits us any spare cash is better in our pocket than in someone else’s. 2016 is not far off and I’ve got to be realistic about future investment returns and the lack of much as far as past returns. And I still get caught up when I see catamarans… Haven’t given up on that either.

Educate me please!

As usual, your input would be much appreciated.

Colleen
__________________

__________________
"You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - Robin Williams
NotJustDreaming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:14   #2
Registered User
 
Teknav's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas - USA
Boat: Twin Otter de Havilland Floatplane
Posts: 1,838
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Hi Colleen! When you buy a used boat, you'll be buying someone else's problems. A boat is a money hole, as it is. Save up enough and buy a brand new one!
__________________

__________________
Teknav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:17   #3
Registered User
 
capttman's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Satellite Beach Florida
Boat: Bruce Roberts 434
Posts: 716
Send a message via Skype™ to capttman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknav
Hi Colleen! When you buy a used boat, you'll be buying someone else's problems. A boat is a money hole, as it is. Save up enough and buy a brand new one!
Don't agree here. You can buy a used boat for a fraction the cost of a new one and even if you do need some fixen it's not going to sink you.
New boats have problems too
__________________
Capttman

"When the bow be in the trees we'll be running out of seas"
capttman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:33   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,383
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Hard to give exact answers to what needs repair or replacement without an expert inspection. Not a Yanmar expert but some heavy duty diesels can run for 10,000 hours with no problem. How well it was maintained, whether it was ever abused (over heated, run low on oil, that sort of thing) could make a huge difference in the engine. It could be good for years or could be on it's last legs.

Rigging, yes all the experts say replace it no matter how it looks if it is 8-10-12 years old. Which number you pick depends on which expert and whether the boat was sailed hard, tropics vs northern etc. For a charter boat in the tropics I would lean towards the low end so may be reaching the useful life of the rigging. That being said, there are some that claim you can use your rigging as long as it is carefully inspected. If you are a bit new to sailing and boat maintenance, err on the side of caution and also making your insurance company happy.

Electronics. I would use them if they work. If in good shape and they do what you want why replace them? If you must have all the latest bells and whistles and have plenty of money then ditch them all and get new.

Other stuff depends on your personal preference. Some are happy with no engine, no electric and a bucket. Others can't leave home without everything up to a washer/dryer. But don't forget the more fancy stuff you have the more repairs which is time stuck at a dock waiting for the electrician and spending more money.

My compromise for comforts: good stove/oven and refrigeration, small hot water system, small air conditioner for very occasional use.

As far as the price, best bet there is to look at every similar boat on the internet and see what they're listed at. If you know an honest broker ask them for advice.

With five on board if you are cruising and anchoring you will need a pretty good dinghy. Perhaps a 11-12' RIB with at least 15 HP, I would go 25 HP to move 5 people on plane. New you could spend $6000-$12,000 depending on brand and HP.

6 man liferaft $2-3000 for a low end coastal, up to double for a high end offshore.

Beneteau is fine depending on what you plan to do. Standard Caribbean and tropical cruising certainly.

Anchor I would have 50-60 lb new generation anchor (Manson, Spade, etc) with 200' of 3/8" chain and a 40 lb Fortress for backup.

But as mentioned, it's all theoretical until you see the boat and condition. Everything on it could be in great shape and ready to use or could be worn out and ready to trash.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:42   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,383
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Just saw the replies from Teknav and Capttman and they're both right. A used boat could be a nightmare or could save you a heap of money. Will totally depend on the boat and condition.

Plus be well advised that a boat will be a significant, ongoing expense to maintain. You can minimize this if you are handy with tools but....
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:43   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,152
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

When buying new, a boat depreciates significantly the first few years. This is a significant cost.

If you can get a boat that is a few years old that is still in excellent to good condition then you have saved yourself a lot of money.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:49   #7
Registered User
 
NotJustDreaming's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada)
Boat: boatless
Posts: 99
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Thanks for your opinion SkipMac. That's great info. Like I said it's more of a lesson in boat buying so I know what to think as I examine the listings.

We're not ready for a broker yet but I hear it sometimes takes years to find a boat.

We're not in a position to buy new. We're taking the 'go now' - well rather soonerish - approach to cruising. Either way, I don't want to spend a fortune on a boat.
__________________
"You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - Robin Williams
NotJustDreaming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:55   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,383
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotJustDreaming View Post
Thanks for your opinion SkipMac. That's great info. Like I said it's more of a lesson in boat buying so I know what to think as I examine the listings.

We're not ready for a broker yet but I hear it sometimes takes years to find a boat.
I've been boating almost 40 years, owned 6-8 boats, knew exactly what I wanted in my last boat, down to a short list of brands and models, had a reasonable budget, and it took me over two years.

Took me less time to meet a girl and get married.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 13:08   #9
Registered User
 
Ironhorse74's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Vancouver Washington
Boat: Ed Monk designed 34' Sloop Second Wind
Posts: 400
Images: 1
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I think the best advise is haul it and have it surveyed by a surveyor of your choice. Not the brokerage choice. I would ask the brokerage who they recommend and then find someone else.
__________________
Ironhorse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 13:34   #10
Registered User
 
bgallinger's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Jupiter, FL
Boat: Hunter 340
Posts: 350
Images: 10
Send a message via AIM to bgallinger
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

It's common knowledge to replace the rigging after 10 years but is there a difference for salt water and fresh water boats?
__________________
bgallinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 13:36   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

First you need a good surveyor in BVI. Hard to find especially one that is not dependent on the charter boat business. You would also need a mechanic to go over the engine. I, for one, do not like turbos and this boat has a turbo. I think they're an added complication but many others have them and are happy.

Secondly, if the boat surveys ok and sea trials are satisfactory, you would have to equip the boat for cruising. Having checked the specs, I would say the boat is definitely not ready for a family of five to cruise. At a minimum you would have to upgrade the electrical system, batteries, and solar charging. You would need a dink and motor and, in all likelihood, davits or an arch. If you're lucky you might still be able to get a 473 arch from Beneteau, a lot cheaper than a custom job. The three preceding sentences would cost about 17K in the States. Don't know added cost if outfitted in BVI but it would be more. I would think the foregoing would be the minimum.

If you want a liferaft, SSB, watermaker, new instruments, etc., etc the sky's the limit. I think once you start you will exhaust your budget. That's how it usually goes.

One other note, it's French built so if you ever bring it home there will be duty in addition to HST. If you want to register the boat in Canada you will require a tonnage survey. Just an example of the "soft" costs involved that can mount up and do not go towards equipping.

The 473 is quite suitable for a family of five and the tankage is more than adequate. But you will have to keep an eye on all the shampooing if you are the only male in your family.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 14:22   #12
Registered User
 
tbodine88's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Austin TX
Boat: West Wight Potter 19
Posts: 720
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhorse74 View Post
I think the best advise is haul it and have it surveyed by a surveyor of your choice. Not the brokerage choice. I would ask the brokerage who they recommend and then find someone else.
But if you don't live near the boat, how do you find one that is reputable?
__________________
tbodine88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 15:04   #13
Registered User
 
Ironhorse74's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Vancouver Washington
Boat: Ed Monk designed 34' Sloop Second Wind
Posts: 400
Images: 1
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbodine88 View Post
But if you don't live near the boat, how do you find one that is reputable?
I would start with a google search and then a post here on CF. Asking if anyone knows a good surveyor in east bum f@ck BVI.
__________________
Ironhorse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 15:47   #14
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I dunno if you missed a couple of CF threads on what to bring aboard - but I distilled the collected wisdom of CF into a page here:-

https://sites.google.com/a/jaytac.co...month-cruising

(as per the last link in my sig).

I suggest you have a run through the list to see what you want onboard - and then totalling up the stuff not onboard the boat(s) you are looking at.

The list doesn't cover everything - but pretty exhaustive, and with ballpark (some very!) costings against each.

That page also has links back to the orignating CF thread(s).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 16:10   #15
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Quote:
Essentially I’d like to know what you’d be picking out of a listing when you’re trying to narrow down your search and the things you’d be considering essential to add/fix/replace right away.
You may be one step ahead of the game here. You "think" this boat might be a good one but you really have not seen it nor walked on it or sailed on it. There could be a thousand boats that meet this criteria. You are also trying to refit the boat before you have made a decision.

My own opinion is charter boats are retried when they are no longer new. Tier 1 charter companies charter new boats - period. They are well used and equipped generically so they are all the same equipment. Basic stuff and not always top of the line but serviceable. They all lack the little things any real owner would add to make it their own.

I think you need to get some experience to sort this out. Maybe you should charter one for a week. Maybe you should get the same boat I like and be like me. You see the problem? You need a boat like you not like someone else. You need to get there some way.

I would suggest a road trip with the whole family and see some boats and walk on some boats and argue what everybody likes and see what seems to fit. The "in person" experience reveals far more than you think. You need a boat like you not like us. Make yourselves more experienced and learn to know what you like, what you want and most important why. It's not a list we can give you because we really don't know you. You need to get rid of most of the preconceived notions you have and replace them with real things about your family and being on a boat stuck with each other. It's not at all like being home or even in a vacation on land some place. It's far worse the equipment and layout of the boat isn't more important than the dynamics of the crew. With the right crew any boat will work.

You can make a long study from YachtWorld. I did it for a good long time looking at boats and what seems to be the patterns about them. Until you see real boats and sail on one most of the important stuff is hidden. The pictures can actually show far more once you know what to look for but this is lacking from you vision right now. It really is more than bunks and heads. You could argue they are less important than other things.

Get everyone involved and spend the money up front to get some "family experience" looking at boats or better yet charter one. You could save more money than you think. Investments in crew development are always well spent.
__________________

__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.