Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-08-2012, 16:36   #16
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Whenever the interminable rust repairs on Boracay get to me I dream about something in fibreglass, and top of my dream list has been the Beneteau 473. However reality keeps on catching up with me so here's a few reasons why we're not cruising the Whitsundays in an ex charter 473 right now.

#1 is the distance from where we are. Going to the other side of the world, buying a boat and bringing it back to Oz is a practical impossibility. You're closer, but the same considerations would come into play.

#2 is the draft. 6'11" or 2.10m in the new money. I've lost count of the number of time we assisted the local dredging efforts on our way north, and that's with 6'6". The worst we did was to rub a bit of paint off the steel but all we ever touched was sand. Coral and rocks would be far less forgiving. My first question with a 473 would be what happens when that big deep keel hits a rock. The charter companies must know the answer...

#3 is that the 473 is way too big for two. Realistically the 393 (or even the new Beaneteau 40's that are now coming out of charter) is a lot closer to what we should aim for. You don't say how old your children are or what your long term plans are but unless they involve long distance cruising over several years there may be boats that are better suited.

#4 is the total package cost. There may be some wriggle room in the price, but that may be taken by necessary repairs. Upgrading to cruising standard is not going to be cheap in the BVI's.

#5 is that chartering is cheaper than owning. If you're not using the boat full time then it's a lot cheaper to charter than to buy.

#6 is the end of the dream. The walk from where we were berthed in Brisbane to the showers was past a stunningly well fitted out 473 that was for sale. It reminded me that dreams end and boats get sold, and big expensive boats are hard to move in the current market.
__________________

__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 17:06   #17
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Step 1 - Figure out how much space you need. 5 people is a lot depending on how old the kids are. 47 feet seems reasonable but the layout of the specific boat appears pretty tight to me. All the berths are basically "crawl in" berths. This may seem great for a week of chartering but imagine over time the difficulty of getting dressed in those cramped berths. Secondly there may be too many heads and they may be too small. Showering in one of these heads gets challenging.

I have chartered up to 5 days with 6 people on slightly smaller boats. It's amazing how much junk people have/need to feel "at home"

OTOH the cockpit is expansive. For warm climes where you live topsides most of the time this could be an OK trade off.

Bottom line I think 47-50 feet is good but you need a better layout.

Step 1a - Take your family and do a charter of at least 7 days. On a boat that is very similar to this. You will find stuff out very quickly - Water runs out, power runs out, holding tanks fill, batteries go flat. You will run the engine a lot to keep power and hot water. There is a reason the engine has close to 5,000 hours on it. Charterers usually get free fuel and run the engine a lot.

Where is everyone's stuff? Have you done any laundry? Where is everyone's dirty crap? Is it starting to feel cramped? Is everyone staying clean? IS everyone looking forward to getting to a marina for a hot shower, some cold drinks and a meal that doesn't seem like camping food?

Step 2 - Do some searches - I hope this link works - It is a custom search for 40-50 foot boats within the Florida region that are 2006 and newer.

Boats Link

Your boat is listed there and the first thing you will notice is that it is the cheapest boat. I have no further info but if the average 45-50 foot boat is $200k+ what is up with this one? There are deals out there but I am going to presume Sunsail knows what they are doing in terms of getting rid of boats. This is a flag for me.

Step 3 - Be realistic on what else you need - As others stated, water, power and an excellent RIB are in order. With 5 people to tote around I think you should be looking at a serious dink.

At the end of the day it is all personal choice but the idea to charter first before plonking down the bucks is really a god idea.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 17:49   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Sunsail and their related companies are professionally operated global businesses. As a result, I believe that their boats are priced to formula. They know the market for BVI based boats better than anyone in the world, and will price accordingly - not too high, and not too low.

They know they will not sell above their ask, and are planning to sell below their ask. The only uncertainty is "how much". The good news is that they are not emotionally connected to their boats - however, they don't always own them. Many of their boats are privately owned, and the owners are trying to break even on them. They bought a boat that they never wanted to own, and are hoping they can sell them for what they owe (or break even on the costs).

It appears that Moorings (Sunsail) is creating a market glut of boats, perhaps without any care or consideration for the poor saps they sold their program to nor for the other 1000's of boat sellers around the world praying for their boat values to hold up. This represents a buying opportunity for the opportunistic buyer, but creates a sticky situation for the ethical boat buyer: Do you make a low-money offer, knowing that they are not selling those boats, and wait it out like a shark circling it's prey? Or do you make a fair-money offer, paying more than you need to but helping to support a market in dire threat of a major crash?

I think those are your two options when buying these boats.

Some other things to be aware of:
1) Many of these boats are wired for 220 voltage
2) There is likely to be cosmetic damage which does not show well in photos, and is difficult to repair - such things as wood veneer, upholstery, curtains, handles, and the like. These don't affect the integrity of the boat, but are not easy to repair nor to estimate their value.
3) "Broken" items are much easier to deal with, as their exact condition is known, and it is easy to estimate the value of the damage. These should be the least of your concerns in regard to making a decision, but should be foremost in your boat's survey and in your final offer based on the survey results.

I would not buy a large boat in today's market unless I had an immediate, continuous, and long-term need for it. There are cheaper and better ways for an occasional sailor.
__________________
ArtM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 21:52   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Alberg 37
Posts: 124
Images: 1
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

If you have 4 years, get a 35 footer on Lake Ontario. By the end of two years, you will know if you like it and want to do it for a lifestyle. Plus, you will be able to answer all those questions and based on what is right for you. That will give you two more years to find what you want if you choose to retire to cruising.
__________________
bluemoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2012, 12:40   #20
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Pacific
Boat: Lagoon 440, for sale from March 2016 in New Caledonia
Posts: 113
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Hi Colleen,
I've tried to PM you, but your mailbox is full.
Could you please make some space there, or send me your e-mail address at
danyaf@yahoo.com
Cheers
Danya
__________________
Wellington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:48   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 147
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Sorry but " Put aside the fact that it is an ex-charter boat" is not possible. It is the #1 consideration when buying these boats.
I see them every day down here in the Caribbean and the folks who rent these boats do not care at all that the engine is over heating or that the genoa is flogging around in 35 knots of wind for 45 minutes stressing the rig and chain plates powering into a bay to anchor, just as a few examples.
All I can say is BE CAREFUL!
__________________
capta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 19:18   #22
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 2,593
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I have surveyed a number of ex-charter boats purchased by people who thought they were getting a "deal". I am now reluctant to do them as it gets depressing giving bad news so often.

Suggest your read Marine Survey 101 and look for a boat in Michigan, they have more boats than all of Canada and nobody there has a job so prices are very attractive
__________________
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 08:14   #23
Registered User
 
NotJustDreaming's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada)
Boat: boatless
Posts: 99
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Thanks everyone for your replies. Much appreciated.

I'm not particularly interested in this boat. I wanted the lessons above. We're still some years away from a boat purchase. It's time for me to start paying attention to all the stuff mentioned above. It's easier to do with an example boat. Consider this. What about that.

So all the comments are great. I didn't consider a lot of it when I was looking at this boat so it was a great learning experience.

We're chartering as a family this winter. Probably BVI or Bahamas again. I'm pretty sure on a monohull.

Wellington... So sorry my mailbox was full. I've emptied it out but also sent you an email.

Thanks again all.

Colleen
__________________
"You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - Robin Williams
NotJustDreaming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 09:38   #24
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Coleen, chartering a monohull is a terrific idea and, while you are in the Virgin Islands you may want to take a couple of extra days to check out some brokerage boats that you are interested in. Even though you are at least a couple of years away from buying, the more boats you see the better idea you will ultimately have about the market.

I would also suggest that you may want to pick up some books by Liza and Andy Copeland. They have cruised the world on a Beneteau First 38 from the mid 80's , initially with their children and should be able to provide you with some interesting insights.

Cheers!

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 18:24   #25
Registered User
 
cuthbert's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Boat: Catalina 350
Posts: 97
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I would be wary of the engine hours. It is just too many, even for a well maintained engine. To get a perspective....If you had a diesel car and drove it smoothly on freeways at 50mph, 1000hrs = 50,000 miles. This boat has the motoring equivalent of almost 250,000 miles.

Would you buy a car with 250,000 miles on it? Even a Mercedes? It would be like buying a well used Berlin taxi.

And then all the knick knacks that would normally never need to be considered, the worn head and hoses, mattresses etc.


It's to expensive compared to a lightly used yet well maintained older boat with one or more owners who 'have some skin in the game'.
__________________
cuthbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 18:35   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Caribbean winters, North Dakota/Minnesota summers
Boat: Leopard 39 Owners Version
Posts: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbert
I would be wary of the engine hours. It is just too many, even for a well maintained engine. To get a perspective....If you had a diesel car and drove it smoothly on freeways at 50mph, 1000hrs = 50,000 miles. This boat has the motoring equivalent of almost 250,000 miles.

Would you buy a car with 250,000 miles on it? Even a Mercedes? It would be like buying a well used Berlin taxi.

And then all the knick knacks that would normally never need to be considered, the worn head and hoses, mattresses etc.

It's to expensive compared to a lightly used yet well maintained older boat with one or more owners who 'have some skin in the game'.
Or... Liken it to an over the road semi tractor and 250,000 miles and it is nothing.. Or a john Deere tractor and 5000 or even 7000 hrs is sometimes nothing.
__________________
Privleoplag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 04:43   #27
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I've bought 2 ex-charter boats in the BVI so far, both came from Sunsail/Moorings.

There are some very emotional discussions here regarding purchasing ex-charter boats or not, as well as whether to buy new or used and I won't go into that subject directly.

Sunsail and Moorings tend to price the boats relatively aggressively. There will be a difference if the boat is privately owned or if the owners went for another charter boat, in which case Sunsail/Moorings will be the owner. In the latter case they have a vested interest in a quick turnaround to get the boat off their hands.

The survey and selection is of paramount importance What is also a factor is if the yacht is still under charter and whether or not the phase-out process has been completed or not.

When I got my Jeanneau 43DS from Sunsail I thought long and hard about all the important "stuff" I'd need to purchase in order to make the boat seaworthy for the Caribbean (initially). It turns out that cruising in the Caribbean makes little additional demands and that the ex-charter boats are basically ready. While additions such as radar, a SSB, liferaft, etc. sound nice, they are "nice-to-haves" for the Caribbean and one can certainly live without them. Depending upon your requirements I would think about a watermaker (although 900l capacity is quite good) and perhaps a genset or solar/wind for power.

While the Yanmar hours are high for the age of the boat, they are pretty good for a charter boat and the charter companies do a good job of maintenance. I wouldn't worry too much about the engine (but the surveyor needs to check for cutlass play, rudder play and groundings). The sails might be old but I know that you can negotiate a new set of sails through Sunsail/Moorings at an excellent price as part of the purchase. I would consider adding 100 feet of chain - some don't like adding chain and would recomend replacing the chain instead of adding that weak link as the charter boat tend to be a little on the low-side there. The bimini might have lots of wear and tear and might need to be replaced soon.

I would strongly recommend flying down to the BVI and looking at the boats - there will almost always be several identical models to choose from and one can't select the best from pictures alone. I think I boarded 30 boats the first time around and kept an Excel sheet and pictures with the merits and problems for each boat.

You can PM me for information on recommended brokers (as a buyer) as well as information on the Sunsail and Moorings salesfolk with whom I dealt.
__________________
-Zanshin (SV Zanshin)
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 05:34   #28
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,982
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

I can't comment on most of this, but I'm surprised at the engine hours. I think not excessive for the engine itself, but 4230 hours on a 2006 engine suggests to me that boat hasn't actually SAILED a lot. (And that's almost 3x the hours we have on our 2002 powerboat... which we use a lot, albeit only "in season.")

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 16:45   #29
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
I've bought 2 ex-charter boats in the BVI so far, both came from Sunsail/Moorings.

<snip>

I would strongly recommend flying down to the BVI and looking at the boats - there will almost always be several identical models to choose from and one can't select the best from pictures alone. I think I boarded 30 boats the first time around and kept an Excel sheet and pictures with the merits and problems for each boat.

You can PM me for information on recommended brokers (as a buyer) as well as information on the Sunsail and Moorings salesfolk with whom I dealt.
Your experience is exactly like my friends - He also bought one of 4(?) coming of charter. He didn't get hi pick of the litter but they put on a new main and overhauled the engine and it came with probably a $4000 dink.

He is completely happy with his decision.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 17:03   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: A Lesson in Boat Buying

Since this thread is "A Lesson in Boat Buying" I'll throw in some info I have gleaned from ex or current charter boats listed for sale. There are countless threads and comments related to what to offer on a used boat. Is it 20% or 30% off of asking price? etc. etc. Well, from most of the brokers and charter companies I have spoken to the price listed is the bottom price, barring any issues with the survey. So, if this is true then owner boats may be closer in price than you may think after negotiation.
__________________

__________________
jostalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.