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Old 31-10-2015, 14:19   #61
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by boatsail View Post
I sell houses for a living and can tell you that a report given to a client without them being there to discuss with the inspector is just asking for problems. You need to see this with your own eyes. You need to dialogue with the inspector as you go through the inspection.

Is there a chance that the inspector only spoke to the broker without you there because the broker was in attendance and you as the buyer were not in attendance?

regardless of the outcome of walking away or getting it repaired, my experience tells me that trouble will be had if a buyer is not present for the inspection.

I advise my clients that the report is the technicality that is needed as a part to facilitate negotiations. What you are paying for with the actual inspection is to have someone walk you though and show you what you are buying at a level of greater detail than what you do on your own. Being absent from an inspection is the main thing that was a fail. To claim a boat "failed" inspection tells me that there is a very high lack of understanding on the process so my next question is....How big or little a deal is the issue? Based on the fact that not even knowing an inspection cannot be failed but stating a boat failed inspection tells me that there is little guidance. Perhaps you need to have your own broker represent you instead of using the sellers broker. Speculation of a 20k repair or a 200 dollar repair based on internet advice from people not involved with the deal????
Again without actually looking at it and having a further evaluation this just seems like a whole bunch of jumping to conclusions without a thorough understanding.

Your inspector needed to recommend further evaluation from someone who might in fact be qualified to further evaluate and conduct repairs so as that an **informed** decision can be made one way or the other.

Right now it seems like you are going off of he said, she said and also adding internet advice (including mine) to the mix only furthers the emotional state that you are in that affects you decision as opposed to getting the factual information from an expert in person whom you hire to give you an estimate on that job.

There is no such thing as passing or failing.

Houses don't tend to get suddenly swallowed by the earth with the deaths of all inside if the surveyor misses something. I would say this boat failed pretty clearly.
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Old 31-10-2015, 14:23   #62
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Re: A down played failed survey

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There is no such thing as "failing" a survey.

You are going about it all wrong.

The survey is your best tool as a buyer.

That was a fairly simple fix (the broker is right).

You use a survey as a negotiating tool. In this case, you could have pointed to the "fatal structural defect" as something that would never "pass survey", and got like $10,000+ off the asking price of the boat, then did the $200 repair yourself.

Big mistake.
If there is OBVIOUS delamination in the vicinity of the mast step and the keel this boat is an unseaworthy death trap. A repair would stretch into the scores of thousands, likely the entire original build cost of the vessel. You are the one you makes a big mistake in this case.
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Old 31-10-2015, 15:17   #63
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by boatsail View Post

There is no such thing as passing or failing.
There certainly is ....

What constitutes a pass for one prospective buyer may well be a fail for another.

Frinstance a buyer of a local boat may be willing to buy a boat with considerable 'issues' knowing that he can fix them at a price and will carry on negotiating on that basis. So in that sense it hasn't 'failed' survey.

Another buyer looking at a boat on the far side of the Tasman with a critical and possibly very expensive fix ( the Gold Coast and Sydney aren't cheap for boat work plus you have to add in your costs flying back and forth to check progress etc) will decide not to proceed therefore the boat can be said to have failed. Even a 'simple' issue may well see the boat 'fail survey' in those circumstances.
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Old 31-10-2015, 19:44   #64
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
If there is OBVIOUS delamination in the vicinity of the mast step and the keel this boat is an unseaworthy death trap. A repair would stretch into the scores of thousands, likely the entire original build cost of the vessel. You are the one you makes a big mistake in this case.
Did I miss something?

I thought I read that the *hull liner pan* was popped off near the mast/keel area.

If the mast step is delaminated and the keel attachment area, I take back my entire post regarding fixing it.

If it was just the hull liner, the OP doesn't even need to haul it, can use the crazy prices in this thread to knock the sale price back and run his biax tape and epoxy down and spots necessary for about $200.
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Old 01-11-2015, 03:17   #65
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Houses don't tend to get suddenly swallowed by the earth with the deaths of all inside if the surveyor misses something.
In Florida, they can


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Old 01-11-2015, 04:08   #66
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by 2hullvenus View Post
Did I miss something?

I thought I read that the *hull liner pan* was popped off near the mast/keel area.

If the mast step is delaminated and the keel attachment area, I take back my entire post regarding fixing it.

If it was just the hull liner, the OP doesn't even need to haul it, can use the crazy prices in this thread to knock the sale price back and run his biax tape and epoxy down and spots necessary for about $200.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 01-11-2015, 04:50   #67
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Sure, I know zero about building and maintaining boats...

And sure, I've never bought or sold several boats either. lol

Looking at your posts, I should probably ignore this one since all of them are just you jumping in to put people down. An online bully who tries to project an I am great/ expert vibe.Not impressed.
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Old 01-11-2015, 04:53   #68
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Re: A down played failed survey

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This so absurd! This statement is totally against anything I have ever learned about surveys.

But yes, this is not a failed survey....

This was a successful survey and a failed deal. The OP got his money's worth.
Quite a few factual and very good comments here.... But this definitely sums it up...
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Old 01-11-2015, 05:17   #69
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by 2hullvenus View Post
Sure, I know zero about building and maintaining boats...

And sure, I've never bought or sold several boats either. lol

Looking at your posts, I should probably ignore this one since all of them are just you jumping in to put people down. An online bully who tries to project an I am great/ expert vibe.Not impressed.
I'm a commercial skip. And you are trying to sell the idea that significant delamination of the pan liner/matrix of a 50 foot Beneteau that is obvious on survey without thermal imaging is an issue fixable with a 200 dollar investment in "biax tape and epoxy", which makes absolutely clear that you indeed have no idea what you are talking about. As to being someone who tries to project an "I am great/ expert vibe", that suggestion is pretty funny coming from you, given your constantly self aggrandising posts elsewhere.
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Old 01-11-2015, 05:35   #70
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Re: A down played failed survey

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As long as the broker does not breach the legals, He still primarily is there to make money for himself. I agree with Carlf for that reason.
You are confusing fidutiary responsibilities with incentives that create a conflict of interest.
- There is a big financial incentive for brokers to downplay or not disclose known flaws in a boat (buyers or sellers broker).
- If they are aware of flaws they have a fidutiary responsibility to share those with the buyer.

Fidutiary responsibilities are the legals and just because they may get away with it doesn't make it legal.
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Old 01-11-2015, 06:06   #71
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Re: A down played failed survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hullvenus View Post
Sure, I know zero about building and maintaining boats...

And sure, I've never bought or sold several boats either. lol

Looking at your posts, I should probably ignore this one since all of them are just you jumping in to put people down. An online bully who tries to project an I am great/ expert vibe.Not impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
I'm a commercial skip. And you are trying to sell the idea that significant delamination of the pan liner/matrix of a 50 foot Beneteau that is obvious on survey without thermal imaging is an issue fixable with a 200 dollar investment in "biax tape and epoxy", which makes absolutely clear that you indeed have no idea what you are talking about. As to being someone who tries to project an "I am great/ expert vibe", that suggestion is pretty funny coming from you, given your constantly self aggrandising posts elsewhere.
Easy Boys....

Anyway... Most of have the idea that the pan liner in this brand design is what provides significant structural support... $200 wouldn't put a dent in the resin or glass supplies required...

This guy here would know... >>>>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
You really dodged a bullet. Hull/liner bond issues are common in these boats, but very difficult to detect. I'd use the same surveyor again in future. I'd also stop looking at boats with a full liner. The last one I fixed cost more like 20k than $200.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:41   #72
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Easy Boys....

Anyway... Most of have the idea that the pan liner in this brand design is what provides significant structural support... $200 wouldn't put a dent in the resin or glass supplies required...

This guy here would know... >>>>>



And that was in a Catalina 42 with much better access to the grid than a beneteau. Still had to cut several very large holes in the liner to provide enough access to debonded areas of grid/liner. Anyone who can remove all interior cabinetry in way of repairs, tent the entire vessel interior for dust control, vessel protect soles, remove teak/holly insets on liner sole, cut out all liner under insets, grind and glass all areas of delam (almost impossible to reach), rebond liner skins, grind and glass all seams, fair out, prime & prep, color match gelcoat, gelcoat and finish interior to match, remove all masking and vessel protect, clean entire interior; all for $200, has a job waiting here in Seattle. This one was not too bad, passed at least two surveys like that before being spotted by diligent yard crew. Have yet to see a liner delam repair which didn't require a similar process. Definitely not a DIY repair. Wouldn't suggest anyone but an experienced pro tackle this sort of repair. And yes, materials costs alone far exceeded that amount.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:59   #73
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Re: A down played failed survey

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And that was in a Catalina 42 with much better access to the grid than a beneteau. Still had to cut several very large holes in the liner to provide enough access to debonded areas of grid/liner. Anyone who can remove all interior cabinetry in way of repairs, tent the entire vessel interior for dust control, vessel protect soles, remove teak/holly insets on liner sole, cut out all liner under insets, grind and glass all areas of delam (almost impossible to reach), rebond liner skins, grind and glass all seams, fair out, prime & prep, color match gelcoat, gelcoat and finish interior to match, remove all masking and vessel protect, clean entire interior; all for $200, has a job waiting here in Seattle. This one was not too bad, passed at least two surveys like that before being spotted by diligent yard crew. Have yet to see a liner delam repair which didn't require a similar process. Definitely not a DIY repair. Wouldn't suggest anyone but an experienced pro tackle this sort of repair. And yes, materials costs alone far exceeded that amount.
Jayzuz....

And I was just thinking of the access holes needed to be opened up, and all the interface grinding... Let alone that nightmare of the cosmetic rebuild...

Wowza...

Imma copy and paste this on avb3's thread if that's ok?

Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
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Old 01-11-2015, 08:09   #74
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Re: A down played failed survey

PS- Owner had to pay for everything. He knew when the damage occurred (grounding), but couldn't prove it as it had been years previous, with damage not detected at the time. Boat was on the market and in for a buyers survey. If the buyer had not been a close friend of the yard manager, the boat never would have been gone over thoroughly enough to detect the damage, which was severe. Buying a used boat with a full liner is a gamble; very difficult to know just what you are getting into. In this case, potential buyer bailed out; owner had to shell out vast sums just to keep the boat on the market; broker can't sell without full disclosure; boat languishes on the dock. Typical.
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Old 01-11-2015, 08:14   #75
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Jayzuz....

And I was just thinking of the access holes needed to be opened up, and all the interface grinding... Let alone that nightmare of the cosmetic rebuild...

Wowza...

Imma copy and paste this on avb3's thread if that's ok?

Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?


Sure. "All that grinding" is right. This one had substantial delaminated glass tabbing on the grid. Much heavy grinding to remove failed tabs. Several garbage bags of grinding dust worth.
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