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Old 30-10-2015, 15:49   #46
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Re: A down played failed survey

Extremely interesting opinions across the board.

Let's start working through a few.

To the guy who said a $200 fix, I don't know what forum you have been reading but from what I have read you can't do much on boats for $200. To just lift the 50ft boat out of the water to do the out of water inspection cost $800 in my currency.

It does sound like everyone was doing their job. Surveyor picked up issues, broker working had to sell the boat. I don't think there was a relationship between them at all.

I am not unhappy at all that I spent money on the survey like others have said its peanuts compared to what it could have cost me, mega repairs or worse life. The boat had to be delivered to me, to do so meant crossing a small sea. The surveyor said that no surveyor/naval architect would sign off on it doing the crossing. The surveyor did take me through options, basically his advice was talk to Beneteau, sure I could do this and get a price and negotiate and it crossed my mind but I didn't love the boat that much to go down this road. I always had reservations about this make/model and something like this was an instant deal breaker.

Regarding the surveyor talking to the broker. The report was not sent to the broker. I was unable to attend the survey (different country, other commitments) I independently hired the surveyor for this job and the contract asked if they were to send a copy of the report to the broker. I ticked no, I'm guessing because the broker was organising the boat he was also hovering around during this time and a discussion started. I'm actually glad it did because the information came directly from the surveyor and not via me.

My wording of the failed survey and the failed/successful notion is neither here nor there. You know what I mean.

I believe the surveyor did great job and would hire again.

Yes the problem was the hull and liner de-lamination not the deck. There were other issues picked up also but this was the major.

I have spoken to the local dealer about Beneteaus in general and the liner is definitely structural. He told me this liner makes them extremely strong??

I was told by the surveyor that the possible cause of the issue was the the boat was not supported correctly out the the water which makes me think that perhaps in the environment it was designed for floating in the water it is very strong but out of the water with a 4+ tonne keel hanging off it not properly supported issues can arise.

I believe the surveyor did everything correct. He said he would ring if anything major come up and talk to me direct, which he did.

Regarding whether the owner/broker knew about this issue is unclear but when I asked if they would like a copy of the survey he didn't seem that interested so leaves me a little suspicious that perhaps they knew something. I was happy to share it if it helps them to repair it correctly. The broker was a hell of a nice guy but like I said seem to down play something which sounds major.

If it were me I would tell the owners to get their own survey. The boat should come off the market until the repair is done and there is sufficient documentation to support it.

Rich


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Old 30-10-2015, 16:01   #47
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Re: A down played failed survey

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that you will need a clean survey to show to the insurance company. If a major problem is found in the survey, most insurance companies won't touch it. Or they will put limitation on the insured value, or them may limit your usage (ex. restricting the vessel to a yard until the problems are resolved). You may get a cheap price on a boat like this, but you will inherit a bunch of headaches and will need to get it fixed if you want insurance.
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Old 30-10-2015, 21:00   #48
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by rkjbnz View Post
I have spoken to the local dealer about Beneteaus in general and the liner is definitely structural. He told me this liner makes them extremely strong??

I was told by the surveyor that the possible cause of the issue was the the boat was not supported correctly out the the water which makes me think that perhaps in the environment it was designed for floating in the water it is very strong but out of the water with a 4+ tonne keel hanging off it not properly supported issues can arise.

Rich


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Rich- I too have been where you are and have paid for a few surveys before I got my boat.
Brokers are sellers and will often say what needs to be said to sell the boat.
A strong boat will not delaminate on the hard. Just a day sail around NZ will send forces against your boat far in excess of that. If Bendy is telling you the liners make the boat sound...well do you want a boat as strong as that flimsy plastic layer on the inside?
Are you serious about a boat?
Cut the Cr@p
Be there during the survey
Buy a boat with a ocean reputation.
And make sure the broker knows he is there to help you buy the boat you want, and that's it.
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Old 30-10-2015, 23:27   #49
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by dwoodall View Post
I think I would go one step further and file a complaint against the selling broker for failure to disclose this. It would seem very unlikely that he or she did not know about this. I don't know what state this was in or how well regulated the brokers are there, but in many places, the seller via the broker is required to disclose any known defects. It is crazy that you should be out your escrow for a a boat that clearly had major problems, seemingly from an significant impact that was surely known by the seller.

Just my fairly uneducated $.02 worth.
Well, its pretty much disclosed now... with only 2 Oceanis 50's on the market in Oz/NZ at present I wouldn't want to be trying to sell one.

Saw a 'big' powerboat in NZ recently that had failed survey. Ask had been about $1M.... had engine alignment probs and a 'wet' balsa cored hull.

Was up for tender with full disclosure...it sold , don't know how much for but I don't think it was $1M...
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Old 31-10-2015, 00:23   #50
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Re: A down played failed survey

Brokers most certainly do have a fiduciary duty to disclose known issues.


What they don't have is a financial incentive since they get paid when the sale goes thru. Doesn't matter if they are a buyers or sellers broker.


Also don't get sucked into the idea that your sellers broker won't happily sell for 20-30% less than what the boat is worth because they lose commission. Reality is if they can turn the boat over in 2 weeks, they have cash in their pocket with very little effort. Compare that to 8-10months of advertising and fielding calls instead of finding the next seller and bragging about how quick their average sales time is.


This boat definitely did fail the survey. The buyer gets to decide what is failure (within reason). The seller has the option to have it repaired to the buyers satisfaction or lower the price to the buyers satisfaction. But the buyer has the option to walk away. This is why you get a survey.
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Old 31-10-2015, 01:03   #51
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by dwoodall View Post
It is crazy that you should be out your escrow for a a boat that clearly had major problems, seemingly from an significant impact that was surely known by the seller.

I never said the deposit was kept it was fully refunded almost immediately. It was part of the contract. Just a lot of other expenses when travelling abroad to do this deal. But hey that's boats right!!

Like I said earlier the broker was a nice guy and just doing what he's employed to do.

I'm moving on got more boats to look at. Thanks for all your comments it's been interesting to read the different perspectives.

Rich


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Old 31-10-2015, 01:30   #52
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Re: A down played failed survey

I would not buy a boat which relied upon a hull/liner bond to transmit keel loads into the structure nor would I buy one in which the hull flexed enough to delaminate it from the liner. Look for an older US built boat, they have ambulance chasing lawyers and contingency fees.
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Old 31-10-2015, 03:53   #53
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Unfortunately, the broker isn't really representing the seller or the buyer. He's representing himself.
He has no fiduciary duty to either the seller or buyer...
“Boat Brokers have a special relationship to buyers and sellers coupled with onerous “fiduciary duties” that can be breached in various ways ...”
Broker responsibilities and the importance of a well drafted contract.

Association of Yacht Sales Professionals | Florida Causes of Action for Which a Broker Could Be Sued

CYBA: Code of Ethics
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Old 31-10-2015, 04:52   #54
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Re: A down played failed survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
“Boat Brokers have a special relationship to buyers and sellers coupled with onerous “fiduciary duties” that can be breached in various ways ...”
Broker responsibilities and the importance of a well drafted contract.

Association of Yacht Sales Professionals | Florida Causes of Action for Which a Broker Could Be Sued

CYBA: Code of Ethics
As long as the broker does not breach the legals, He still primarily is there to make money for himself. I agree with Carlf for that reason.
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Old 31-10-2015, 05:56   #55
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Re: A down played failed survey

Breathe a sigh of relief and buy your surveyor a beer. No sensible person would want a boat with that kind of problem. As for brokers, I have found it best to have your own broker involved in the deal that is representing you and not the seller. Good luck in your future shopping.
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Old 31-10-2015, 10:41   #56
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by rkjbnz View Post
...
My wording of the failed survey and the failed/successful notion is neither here nor there. You know what I mean...
You were 100% correct in calling it a failed survey, which is one of the conditions by which you can get your deposit back.

You did well to pass on this inferior vessel.
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Old 31-10-2015, 13:19   #57
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Re: A down played failed survey

GordMay's links are typical of brokers hand-waving around Fiduciary Duty - which they don't have and don't want. (it happens with stock brokers and real estate brokers too)

If you have a legal Fiduciary Duty, you have to put your client's interest ahead of your own (among other things)

Pretty much all the broker has to do is avoid outright fraud (such as not telling you about a known defect) and meet some "industry friendly" laws that are part of his state broker's license -- but just about anything else is fine in pursuit of his commission:

"That's a great price for this boat. Won't last long."

"This boat is owned by a very experienced and picky owner. No expense was spared in maintaining her."

"This boat will take you anywhere you want to go"

"The other broker told me he's got a lot of interest in this boat. You should make the highest offer you can or it might get away"

"These boats don't come on the market very often, especially one in such good condition"

"I wish I could buy this boat myself"

"This price is as good as we're going to get. The seller(buyer) is ready to walk away"

"The surveyor's job is to make things sound scary. I'm not worried about anything in this survey report"


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Old 31-10-2015, 13:53   #58
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Well I have just been through my first failed survey.

Hull and liner separation near the keel bolts and mast step. Pretty major structural issues according to the surveyor who said the manufacturer needs to be contacted in order to know how to fix it properly.

Unfortunately it was rather down played by the broker, who got another opinion from someone he knew who said bog and fibre glass is all it needs.

I sided with the surveyor and pulled out of the deal. Quite a bit money down the drain but feel I dodge a bullet. Perhaps I'm overreacting but I'm a little shocked that there was still pressure to buy this even though there was this (how it was put to me by the surveyor) major issue, he sounded annoyed at me that I was pulling out, even said that I'm going to have this problem with any production boat on the market. Surely this is not the case?

It's a shame I really wanted to give these boats the benefit of the doubt after reading many topics/articles regarding similar faults.

I really do hope they fix it properly. I have a young family and if they fix it badly and sell it to another family I shudder to think.

Anyone else run into this kind of over the top persistence?

Rich
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People have died from hull liner bond separation. It is a calumny that the broker is trying to sell this boat at all without flagging it as having major issues with almost NO realistic prospect of satisfactory repair other than an almost total rebuild of the hull. Awful. You were absolutely right to step away. Well done. Consider the money spent as your protecting your family and it was cheap at 100 times the price. Well done.
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Old 31-10-2015, 14:01   #59
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by rkjbnz View Post
Well I have just been through my first failed survey.

Hull and liner separation near the keel bolts and mast step. Pretty major structural issues according to the surveyor who said the manufacturer needs to be contacted in order to know how to fix it properly.

Unfortunately it was rather down played by the broker, who got another opinion from someone he knew who said bog and fibre glass is all it needs.

I sided with the surveyor and pulled out of the deal. Quite a bit money down the drain but feel I dodge a bullet. Perhaps I'm overreacting but I'm a little shocked that there was still pressure to buy this even though there was this (how it was put to me by the surveyor) major issue, he sounded annoyed at me that I was pulling out, even said that I'm going to have this problem with any production boat on the market. Surely this is not the case?

It's a shame I really wanted to give these boats the benefit of the doubt after reading many topics/articles regarding similar faults.

I really do hope they fix it properly. I have a young family and if they fix it badly and sell it to another family I shudder to think.

Anyone else run into this kind of over the top persistence?

Rich


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The bog and... should be the giveaway. Taking repair advice from a broker is like taking medical advice from a dealer...

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Old 31-10-2015, 14:02   #60
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Re: A down played failed survey

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Originally Posted by rkjbnz View Post
...

I believe the surveyor did great job and would hire again.

Yes the problem was the hull and liner de-lamination not the deck. There were other issues picked up also but this was the major.

I have spoken to the local dealer about Beneteaus in general and the liner is definitely structural. He told me this liner makes them extremely strong??

I was told by the surveyor that the possible cause of the issue was the the boat was not supported correctly out the the water which makes me think that perhaps in the environment it was designed for floating in the water it is very strong but out of the water with a 4+ tonne keel hanging off it not properly supported issues can arise.


...

Rich

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That logic is "interesting" at best. If a boat needs to be supported like a newborn baby out of the water or it falls apart it is not "strong" in any sense whatever. It is exhibiting a flawed design. Liners or matrixes can be strong indeed, if they are well designed. Many of those manufactured by Beneteau have had mass production goals in their sights, not hull strength or long term integrity. Liners do not magically make boats "very strong". Some do, some don't, but I personally would be VERY careful if contemplating any boat at all second or third hand, if it has a liner. Just be thankful that in this case the delamination was so bad that it showed up on survey. In many cases it is impossible without thermal imaging to detect serious weaknesses in hulls with liners that have been grounded. The fact that the surveyor says that this major issue was caused by "lack of proper support" alone should tell you something. A boat should be able to dry out or stand on its keel alone, without special extra support. Many of the modern mass production boats are built so lightly/poorly that they deform in this case, and this causes liner separation. How can such a boat be considered fully safe for a young family?
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