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Old 14-06-2016, 10:03   #76
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Thanks for that info. I have actually been looking at the first boats. I am also considering the Caliber 40 which is made in Clearwater. Do you sail from DIYC? I am in Treasure Island.
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Old 14-06-2016, 10:27   #77
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Yeah, not sure you can get there from here. Perhaps need for shoal draft is overstated UNLESS you know for sure, when the race is over, you'll be exploring shallow harbors/anchorages. If so just have fun being IN the race if not placing well. You might do well with a centerboard design, as long as you don't mind having a centerboard. S&S designed some nice older ones that still have respectable showings and they aren't bad off the wind. Of course there are faster boats but you said you wanted to cruise the Caribbean. Love the challenge though. I remember reading of someone cruising the Caribbean in a Hughes 38. They really enjoyed its performance. I always thought that was a beautiful design, and a nice compromise on many racer/cruiser fronts. But it does draw 6 ft and it is A BIT older.
Whatever you get you may want to check the threads discussing running the chain back to somewhere more central.
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Old 14-06-2016, 11:16   #78
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Check out Jeanneau Sun Fast or Sun Odyssey models. I know the Sun Odyssey's have a shoal draft option. Slightly biassed as we love our 43DS!
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Old 19-06-2016, 09:24   #79
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

As was stated earlier, in PHRF you can race damn near anything, so going for a low PHRF rating isn't necessarily what you need, in reality, the lower the rating the more sharply focused the boat will be. this means you'd pretty much need to sail a perfect race every time to be in the running.
I have raced my Pedrick 47, which is a barge compared with my previous boat but with a PHRF rating it is on an equal footing with the other boats. Not good in upper bay, light air summer racing for sure but still has a chance on open ocean long distance races.
So pick what will fit your needs 98% of the time and still be fun to race 2% of the time.
By the way, mine was the first one of it's make and model to be rated by PHRF, so the jury is still out on the accuracy of the rating but it's still fun to get out and go round the course. Just gotta hope for some heavy air days.....Thats when I'm having fun and the lightweights are peeing their pants.
Cheers, good luck on finding that "perfect" boat, hope it works out.
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Old 19-06-2016, 16:45   #80
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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The CCA rule produced good cruising boats, the IOR rule did not.
Now, there's an understatement!

(Too) Many decades of obsevation have convinced me that three things are eternal: Death, Taxes, and Rating Rules. I suppose there should be another category 3b: The behavior of men (and they mostly are men). To a patient sailor it doesn't matter what boat he owns, from Spray to an ULDB, if he waits long enough a rating rule will come along and a fleet will form around it in which his boat will win. But win a little too frequently or a little too easily and "they" will change the rule. Finisterre won the Bermuda race and immediately they changed the rule. She continued to win and they continued to change the rule until American Eagle and Running Tide were winners and no one was any longer building beamy centerboard yawls. And if you get REALLY innovative they will squash you like a bug. Anyone remember Cascade?

By my examples I am dating myself, but I doubt anything has changed much. Certainly the America's Cup has demonstrated that lawyers, politicians, and money are as important as anything that happens on the water.

You want to race a cruising boat? Get the boat you like and race PHRF. What difference does it make? It's PHRF! You want to really race? Buy a Starboat.

For the members of a fleet to have good competition (and a good time) all that's necessary is for everyone to abide by an unspoken agreement as to what level of competition and expense will be undertaken by all competitors. Then, whether it's Y Flyers or Around the World, good racing will ensue.

Paul
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Old 19-06-2016, 18:33   #81
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Hunter Cherubini 37, draft 5 feet, mast around 50, points upwind well, spacious cruiser and great price.
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Old 20-06-2016, 13:39   #82
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Ericson 32-3 is a great boat. There is a guy on the internet that takes his from California to Hawaii and back single hand.



We had a E-30+, an E-38, and an E-38-200, about 14 years total ownership.

The 38, although made well with a lot of wood inside and good tankage, is too much a handfull downwind for long distance cruising in my opinion.

I would sail with just a 70-80% head sail to pull her along so that she would behave in 30 knots broad reach with 6-12 foot waves off California. A triple reefed flat main could sometimes be used in unison to reduce mast pump, but I think the mast is not far enough forward in these boats. She rolls, and sometimes the rudder stall (you can anticipate it) and the roll would re-inforce each other, which you don't want, as you will round up. She just never felt happy or in change once the winds were over 25 Kts, beating or otherwise.


Even Williams decides to look at an E-38.




I have always wondered about Sabre 42s, like this one. No first hand experience.

1988 Sabre 42 Centerboard Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 21-06-2016, 10:35   #83
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

I think Caliber would be a wise choice. I like the design philosophy. Each builder has to make decisions on various competing design parameters, and I like where they ended up.

What I found my self into too many times with my two Ericson 38s was following seas that occasionally the tops were falling off of. When that happens just abaft of or under your boat, you will appreciate the superior stall tolerance of a skeg mounted rudder. I would go to full rudder stall in these conditions, about once every minute or so, and when that happens, the stern starts to come around, falling to leeward in the process.

It was otherwise a fast boat with a 7 foot draft keel and probably 6 foot draft rudder with a very high aspect ratio planform, and was very quick to windward and beam reach in seas to 3 feet and winds to 20 kts, which just about includes 70% of the highest waves-winds in So Cal. But taking her North to the Channel Islands, with morning gusts from the NW (not a Santa Ana from the SE) in the 30s sometimes, then running from San Miguel to Santa Rosa to an anchorage on the leeward side, she was not in her element. When these breaking seas get around the rudder on high aspect ratio foils that have a small AoA tolerance to stall, no amount of sail trim is going to correct it. What I would do is motor in it to keep water flowing over the rudder for control authority, even though we had great boat speed (hull speed) with flat small main area and small headsail area. When a wave breaks under the stern, the water flow rate changes direction and speed drastically.
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Old 21-06-2016, 10:55   #84
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57 View Post
As was stated earlier, in PHRF you can race damn near anything, so going for a low PHRF rating isn't necessarily what you need, in reality, the lower the rating the more sharply focused the boat will be. this means you'd pretty much need to sail a perfect race every time to be in the running.
I have raced my Pedrick 47, which is a barge compared with my previous boat but with a PHRF rating it is on an equal footing with the other boats. Not good in upper bay, light air summer racing for sure but still has a chance on open ocean long distance races.
So pick what will fit your needs 98% of the time and still be fun to race 2% of the time.
By the way, mine was the first one of it's make and model to be rated by PHRF, so the jury is still out on the accuracy of the rating but it's still fun to get out and go round the course. Just gotta hope for some heavy air days.....Thats when I'm having fun and the lightweights are peeing their pants.
Cheers, good luck on finding that "perfect" boat, hope it works out.
The problem with this is that if you are on a really slow boat you get disconnected from the other faster boats and can only hope for the best. This especially applies during distance racing

Once separated, you aren't really racing anymore but hoping the winds (currents, tides etc) will be in your favor so you can place well
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Old 21-06-2016, 14:39   #85
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
The problem with this is that if you are on a really slow boat you get disconnected from the other faster boats and can only hope for the best. This especially applies during distance racing

Once separated, you aren't really racing anymore but hoping the winds (currents, tides etc) will be in your favor so you can place well
Racing is racing, in PHRF it's all about corrected time, in distance racing everyone has a strategy based on predicted wind, known currents (most are pretty well documented unless your considering the gulf stream) and have pretty well laid out several courses based on current conditions. All joking aside my Pedrick has a good turn of speed and plenty of sail area for a boat of it's type, it would be considered a performance cruiser, but, because of weight it certainly does not accelerate out of a tack, it has a more stately manner in that respect, so around the bouys beercan racing in the NE in the summer will never be it's forte', I've done it more for laughs and an excuse to get my friends out on a weekly basis. Long distance racing is another animal altogether, in the Newport/ Bermuda race several "old" more cruising oriented boats have taken the trophy over the years on corrected time. Like all racing it depends on the crew, strategy and a little luck from the weather gods, in PHRF you basically have to race to the best of your rating and hope the other guy makes a mistake. The theoretically fastest boat does not always win, in my experience in PHRF on my boats as well as others it was usually the best run boats that won consistently, unless of course you have a rule beater, there are some boats that are superior in certain conditions. Would I rather have my old racer/cruiser for beercan racing? You bet, but I wouldn't be able to afford any boat after my wife divorced me, living on it with 2 kids wasn't exactly cosy.
If you want head to head competition and close in racing get into a one design series, it's about the only racing that depends on close quarters and tactical superiority.
For the application in question here the best solution is to get a boat that suits his needs 90% of the time and is still fun to sail and race in PHRF, for that application there are many possibilities. I wouldn't even begin to suggest a particular model, there are too many variables in question, it comes down to what compromise can you live with and enjoy.
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Old 21-06-2016, 15:59   #86
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57 View Post
Racing is racing, in PHRF it's all about corrected time, in distance racing everyone has a strategy based on predicted wind, known currents (most are pretty well documented unless your considering the gulf stream) and have pretty well laid out several courses based on current conditions. All joking aside my Pedrick has a good turn of speed and plenty of sail area for a boat of it's type, it would be considered a performance cruiser, but, because of weight it certainly does not accelerate out of a tack, it has a more stately manner in that respect, so around the bouys beercan racing in the NE in the summer will never be it's forte', I've done it more for laughs and an excuse to get my friends out on a weekly basis. Long distance racing is another animal altogether, in the Newport/ Bermuda race several "old" more cruising oriented boats have taken the trophy over the years on corrected time. Like all racing it depends on the crew, strategy and a little luck from the weather gods, in PHRF you basically have to race to the best of your rating and hope the other guy makes a mistake. The theoretically fastest boat does not always win, in my experience in PHRF on my boats as well as others it was usually the best run boats that won consistently, unless of course you have a rule beater, there are some boats that are superior in certain conditions. Would I rather have my old racer/cruiser for beercan racing? You bet, but I wouldn't be able to afford any boat after my wife divorced me, living on it with 2 kids wasn't exactly cosy.
If you want head to head competition and close in racing get into a one design series, it's about the only racing that depends on close quarters and tactical superiority.
For the application in question here the best solution is to get a boat that suits his needs 90% of the time and is still fun to sail and race in PHRF, for that application there are many possibilities. I wouldn't even begin to suggest a particular model, there are too many variables in question, it comes down to what compromise can you live with and enjoy.
Once you are disconnected from the leaders all you can do is hope?

Is that really racing?
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Old 21-06-2016, 16:03   #87
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Once you are disconnected from the leaders all you can do is hope?

Is that really racing?
Get into a one design, let me know how it works out for you.
I've raced on everything from a scow to a custom race sled, I love it for the ability to test skill and ability. If you want to bang boats get into dinghy racing. I've seen far too many knuckleheads smash their family boats into each other for a $1.00 plastic trophy, it usually doesn't work out in the end.
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Old 21-06-2016, 16:09   #88
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Get into a one design, let me know how it works out for you.
I've raced on everything from a scow to a custom race sled, I love it for the ability to test skill and ability. If you want to bang boats get into dinghy racing. I've seen far too many knuckleheads smash their family boats into each other for a $1.00 plastic trophy, it usually doesn't work out in the end.
Nice idea but I may be too old now.

I have raced maybe 400-500 races mostly one design though. It has worked out pretty well, but if you have more experience I'm all ears

On this PHRF Race though, I was able to beat the faster 22' boats (I was on a 17' boat) to the downwind mark 10 miles out with a slower rated boat (it was a distance race with a downwind start, spinnakers flying). I knew the wind would be rotating forward so I had a flat spinnaker up and it worked out.

I'm racing singlehanded. I won the race but barely stayed in contact for the 32 miles

Ft Walton Beach Race Last Weekend - Aquarius Sail Owners
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Old 23-06-2016, 11:55   #89
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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I currently own an Ericson 32-3 which I regard as a great boat. The E32-3 is however a bit small for long distance open water races like the St Petersburg to Havana race. I am getting older and softer now, so I am considering stepping up to a boat that is more comfortable for long distance sailing. My next boat should be more of a cruising boat, but one that will not cause people to point at me and laugh when I cross the finish line....or worse, DNF because I could not make it to the line within the time limits.

Some of the boats that I am looking at include: Cabo Rico 38. Beneteaus in the 39-40 range, Ericson 38. This list is far from complete.

Some cruising boats, like the Endeavor 40, perhaps the Islander Freeport, seem to lack performance sufficient to avoid the finger pointing and laughter although I appreciate the comfort.

I would like:
a shoal draft (5 ft would be great)
Bridge clearance under 60 ft.
sea kindly and sturdy enough for blue water comfort
easy to handle short handed
not too tender
with the ability to point reasonably well


I have read a good bit here on the forum about related topics.

Your suggestions would be appreciated.
Saw this boat today and thought of the OP wants for a crushing boat to race in that location and the desire for shallow draft.

This boat looks very clean and well maintained. Nice gear, including good more recent sails, and a carbon fiber mast too. Draft is only 5 feet. Handsome looking inside and out.

1983 Morgan Yachts 384 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 23-06-2016, 12:53   #90
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Saw this boat today and thought of the OP wants for a crushing boat to race
Guaranteed to crush the competition!

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