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Old 12-06-2016, 10:24   #46
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

An Ericsson you already have and I believe you mentioned an Ericsson 38 - good choice that fits into your price range. Look at the ones with a wing keel, they will fit your shoal draft and give you decent performance up wind. Lastly consider putting on an on deck retractable spinnaker pole; you'll get good performance from an asymetrical by being able to fly it forward of the stem, and you can rig it to easily be launched and doused from the cockpit with a spin dock.

A buddy of mine had just such an arrangement and did well in races and had a comfortable cruising boat. If you really want to upgrade performance move the traveler from the cabin top to the bridge deck.

Good luck.

gwy
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:50   #47
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Take a look at the Beneteau First 38. They were mostly built in the 80s, rate pretty well and are actually better built than the newer Beneteaus. Blame the French bean counters. You might also like the Dufour 38 which is quite similar.

The situation is this. You can either buy 5' draft and race a heavy clunker or buy a proven racer/cruiser with 6'-7' draft and learn to anchor out the back. Decent racer/cruisers don't come with a 5' draft.

While I'm here, the Beneteau 40.7 is the most successful racer/cruiser of all having won major races around the world such as the Sydney to Hobart. Even so it might cause you a few nervous and occasionally expensive moments in the bridge department so the 36.7 or First 38 might be safer.
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Old 12-06-2016, 11:44   #48
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

I have an older Cal-40 and not only have Cal-40's been placed in sailboat hall of fame for setting benchmark race design. I have sailed mine solo 1.5 times around the world in the past 10 years
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Old 12-06-2016, 11:49   #49
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by Dhow View Post
The Cal 40 is a great choice. The specs say 5'7" draft, but most listings say 6' which must be fully loaded. The original rig was to the CCA rule and had a single spreader mast with a long boom resulting in a good size low aspect main with end boom sheeting. It's a great rig for a cruising boat. The low aspect keel and balanced spade rudder make her point well with moderate draft and she has the reputation for surfing for long stretches with tiller steering. She must be really well balanced and able to steer with a light helm. Hull #1 won the SORC in 1963, not as a rule beater, but as a fast boat. It was the crossover boat from the full keel of most CCA rule boats to the fin keel. The CCA rule produced good cruising boats, the IOR rule did not.
Last but not least, the Cal 40 has very nice lines- a generous sheer, spoon bow, counter transom, and a cabin house about even with the top of the stem. She has a low house with wide side decks and a large cockpit. The only thing that makes her less than perfect as a cruising boat, but which adds to her sea kindly performance, is the narrow beam which makes her a small 40 down below.
I've got more info on the Cal 40 if you are interested.
I agree, I have a Cal 40 and love it
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Old 12-06-2016, 12:09   #50
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Probably mentioned already SunFast (Jeanneau) and Figaro and Figaro II (I think they are from Beneteau).

Cruisers to be racers and racers that can be cruised.

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Old 12-06-2016, 15:02   #51
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

BENETEAU 40.7 PHRF 54
BENETEAU 36.7 PHRF 78

CAL 40 PHRF 120
YANKEE 30-1 PHRF 180
PACIFIC SEACRAFT 37 SD PHRF 186

The lower the PHRF the faster the boat. You wanna cruise or race?

But remember, the boat doesn't make the sailor.

And you are on a cruisers website asking about racing. You may want to ask over on sailing anarchy.
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Old 12-06-2016, 16:40   #52
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

I wonder anybody mentioned Robert's Spray perhaps?

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Old 12-06-2016, 19:00   #53
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Decent racer/cruisers don't come with a 5' draft.
In general, I would agree with you, but there are exceptions. I have a shoal draft First 375, drawing 5 feet, and with my new sails in 10 knots of breeze I can point with a very well sailed Pearson Flyer, and go just a little bit faster. Downwind under spinnaker I blow right by him. Now I admit, with a deep keel I'd certainly do better, but I'm pleasantly surprised I can sail upwind as well as I do.
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Old 12-06-2016, 19:34   #54
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Decent racer/cruisers don't come with a 5' draft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy stone View Post
In general, I would agree with you, but there are exceptions. I have a shoal draft First 375, drawing 5 feet, and with my new sails in 10 knots of breeze I can point with a very well sailed Pearson Flyer, and go just a little bit faster. Downwind under spinnaker I blow right by him. Now I admit, with a deep keel I'd certainly do better, but I'm pleasantly surprised I can sail upwind as well as I do.
'Decent' racer cruisers are entirely in the mind of the beholder, which is generally not you or I. I have raced classic schooners, J-boat fleets, a Grampian 26, for Gawd's sake, and a bunch of others (plus my youth and early adult life racing dinghies) and loved it all. Some people who race hate cruising a flat bottomed performance oriented boat for a variety of reasons, and some folks who cruise hate racing anything that doesn't give an exhilarating by the seat of your pants kind of ride. It just ain't one size fits all.

A shoal draft boat with the ballast low enough would make a decent cruiser/racer for a lot of people, yet wouldn't for many others. If I raced on the Chesapeake a Bene 40.7 would suck a lot of the time because you can't win a race stuck on a shoal. In Halifax it would be great.
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Old 12-06-2016, 21:05   #55
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Not biting off too much ?

How do you describe someone who doesn't even make 1/4 of the planned voyage on two attempts ? He only travelled as far as Capetown because that was the nearest port. The boat was crippled long before then.
I describe that person as someone to be admired and commended for their brave efforts, never as someone who "bit off too much".

Your remarks indicate that you know little about the thought, planning, skill, and pure guts needed to even attempt a solo circumnavigation record attempt. If you do even a quick search you will soon discover that there are many single-handed circumnavigation races in which many of the entrants never finish. I suppose that in your mind they all "bit off a little more than they could chew". It could never be about boat or weather problems.

Maybe this will open your eyes:

Sunday Times Golden Globe Race '68-'69

* Robin Knox-Johnston finished
* John Ridgeway retired
* Chay Blyth retired
* Loick Fougeron retired
* Bernard Moitessier retired
* Bill King retired
* Nigel Tetley retired
* Alex Carozzo retired
* Donald Crowhurst committed suicide
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Old 12-06-2016, 22:06   #56
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Interesting. Your advancing years, yacht specs, and location quickly brought to mind Dr. Stanley V. Paris and his Lyman-Morse (Thomaston, Maine)-built "Kiwi Spirit", a Farr-designed cruiser racer. Maybe much more money than you wish to spend, yet a cool boat, and of course, built in the Great State of Maine.

Google his name, and you can probably get an audience with him in St. Augustine or Bermuda. That is, if he's not busy trying to break a solo circumnavigation record.

Lyman-Morse. Just up the road from my house. Cool stuff.

Kiwi Spirit:

Lyman-Morse: Lyman-Morse Boatbuilding - Custom Maine Boat Builder - Thomaston, Maine
I hate to throw stones, but that boat was one nightmare after another. In terms of; design, build quality, gear installation, & just common sense.
Sad really, as I used to have a lot of respect for many of the professionals involved in that project, but... Not so much anymore.

At least Paris knew when to throw in the towel.
Paris (Kiwi Spirit) calls it quits - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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Old 13-06-2016, 01:14   #57
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

We sail a Jeanneau DS40 with a 5' draft - actually 5'6" draft fully loaded and she is quite fast and we can sail 40+ degrees on the wind and quite well - but then we do not race and have no intention of it as we are heavy with all the stuff on board --

coming down toward the Corinth Canal we were doing over 8.8k sog until we saw it and immediately took down our main as we did not want anything to break - if our boat had a good sailor on her she would book along nicely

Take a look at Jeanneau -- they are fast and have room for cruising
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Old 13-06-2016, 04:46   #58
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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We sail a Jeanneau DS40 with a 5' draft - actually 5'6" draft fully loaded and she is quite fast and we can sail 40+ degrees on the wind and quite well - but then we do not race and have no intention of it as we are heavy with all the stuff on board --

coming down toward the Corinth Canal we were doing over 8.8k sog until we saw it and immediately took down our main as we did not want anything to break - if our boat had a good sailor on her she would book along nicely

Take a look at Jeanneau -- they are fast and have room for cruising
NICE SOG! And I doubt that you were in danger of breaking something, unless you were getting fully airborne off of a lot of waves. But I, of course, wasn't there at the time.

BTW, & this isn't a criticism, but you guys have LOT of stuff onboard. That's over 3t of stuff, when figured by lb/inch of immersion. Which says a Lot for how well the boat handles, if she's that fast when carrying such a large load of gear.


To the OP: If you find a boat that you like, but her keel is a bit deep for your taste. And it's a bolted on lead fin, you can have it bobbed (shortened), & add a bulb to it in order to compensate for the loss in Righting Moment. And with a well designed bulb, you won't lose much, if anything, in terms of upwind performance.
Take a look at some of the work done by Mars Metals on these.
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Old 13-06-2016, 05:34   #59
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Here are a few examples of what can be done.

http://www.sunstonesailing.com/

http://wingssail.blogspot.com.au

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berrimilla_II

http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/we-...red-our-cutter

Pretty extreme examples, but all of these boats have cruised very extensively and raced hard.

The main thing is not absolute speed around the bouys, but the fun you have doing it. As long as you have a sensible handicap and a nice mixed fleet, with the right attitude racing even a slow old cruiser can be lots of fun and good learning.

There has been a few recent suprizes where old boats have done very well on handicap in some of the bigger races. Eg 2006? sydney hobart won by the old classic 70's S&s love and war.

With some generous age allowances some older designs can be very competitive in the right conditions if well set up and sailed.
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Old 13-06-2016, 05:37   #60
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

llght draft =under 6 feet
heavy draft =over 6feet
you can race any boat/ if you have lots of mates with boats of the same speed
nominate a new division (liveaboard)
there are rallies where you can sail as fast or comfortable as you please
the AYF have waterline length restrictions to exclude slower boats /
there have been groups of (slower) boats organise cannonball races and the times would have placed the boats mid field / may be a safety reason for restrictions.
if you mean a comfortable cruising boat that can win todays cruising division you are looking at a lot of money / the clipper series don't win many bluewater races only in their own division / but they are comfortable.
you are looking for a boat within your budget / of proven design and fitted out to your tastes / then find a division to race in where your chosen sailing project will be competitive.
or spend a lot of money / hve a boat designed to suit your needs capable of winning the race that has taken your fancy /
your boat is out there somewhere / good luck with your sailing project
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