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Old 11-06-2016, 21:13   #31
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Originally Posted by PortClydeMe View Post
Interesting. Your advancing years, yacht specs, and location quickly brought to mind Dr. Stanley V. Paris and his Lyman-Morse (Thomaston, Maine)-built "Kiwi Spirit", a Farr-designed cruiser racer. Maybe much more money than you wish to spend, yet a cool boat, and of course, built in the Great State of Maine.

Google his name, and you can probably get an audience with him in St. Augustine or Bermuda. That is, if he's not busy trying to break a solo circumnavigation record.

Lyman-Morse. Just up the road from my house. Cool stuff.

Kiwi Spirit:

Lyman-Morse: Lyman-Morse Boatbuilding - Custom Maine Boat Builder - Thomaston, Maine
Dr. Paris is quite an interesting gentleman, I will look forward to following his exploits online. I hope that he will publish a blog and maintain a webpage as he sails.
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:10   #32
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Capt. Thunder,

Back in the days when Jim was racing the Yankee 30, people selected boats according to their criteria for their area, as you are trying to do, looking for the one they liked best for their anticipated use. And then they raced them PHRF if they were so inclined.

Jim and I sailed that boat from SF to HI and back, and decided we wanted a less initially tender boat for ocean sailing., and thus the first Insatiable was purchased. Do not forget that two sailboats going in the same direction constitute a race!

Ann
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:31   #33
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Re: A cruiser you can race????

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I absolutely love the E32-3 and may decide to keep her after all the research. The racing I am thinking of would be from St Pete to Cuba and St Pete to Mexico. Those races would require larger crew than I think would be comfortable on the E32-3 for a few days of non stop sailing.

I sailed her to Key West and back from Treasure Island during the Bone Island reggatta last year. There was heavy weather that had a squall line of over 40 kts. The E32-3 took solid water across the foredeck but kept right on moving. It is a solid boat with decent performance and well designed.

A guy sailed one single handed from LA to Hawaii and back:
If you love your E32-3 then keep it. A couple of days cramped is fine if it's ok the other 360 days. During the race you will have perhaps 2 always on deck. Once the race is over, celebrate hard so the crew sleeps drunk making the cramped spaces more bearable

Use the money you would have spent on the trade up to buy some laminate sails, code 0 and bowsprit or whatever to speed yourself up.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:37   #34
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Passport 40 Sailboat for Sale

I would happily race and cruise this, or pretty much any other Bob Perry design. Or an Ericson 32 or 38. Good boats all, IMO.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:52   #35
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Re: A cruiser you can race????

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I am researching Beneteaus but I do not understand the differences between the different models. I get the impression that the "first" models are better performers. Can someone help me understand the differences?

Thanks
A good way to check a boat's performance is to look at it's PHRF Rating. The lower the better.

This pages lists most boats.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

It's then up to you to make the boat sail to it's rating. With a faster boat though, you will still beat (come in ahead of; not place etc) a lot of other boats even if you aren't a good sailor.


Then you can go here and check the boats draft etc:

Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat database.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:18   #36
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Re: A cruiser you can race????

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I am researching Beneteaus but I do not understand the differences between the different models. I get the impression that the "first" models are better performers. Can someone help me understand the differences?

Thanks
Taller rig with a (usually notably) deeper keel and rudder, and higher aspect ratios for all three, e.g. longer and slimmer. In the older Bene's the First series had more modern interiors and were quite a bit racier. The difference in performance is substantial. Most of the First series in North America were built in the Carolinas whereas the Ocean series were imported.
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:01   #37
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Dr. Paris is quite an interesting gentleman, I will look forward to following his exploits online. I hope that he will publish a blog and maintain a webpage as he sails.
Following Paris might be difficult. He started twice and failed twice. This was definitely a case of biting off too much. That boat would have eaten every bit of $3m and maybe more. Ouch!

Maybe he is planning voyage #3. Not sure.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:31   #38
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Following Paris might be difficult. He started twice and failed twice. This was definitely a case of biting off too much. That boat would have eaten every bit of $3m and maybe more. Ouch!

Maybe he is planning voyage #3. Not sure.
Yup, a honey of a boat from a great builder in Maine. In fact, she's been repainted and is currently up for sale at LM for around $2M, not that you'd be batting in that league.

Biting off too much? That's hardly the case.

When you approach the shove-off date for your solo circumnavigation record attempt, please let us know.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:39   #39
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Not biting off too much ?

How do you describe someone who doesn't even make 1/4 of the planned voyage on two attempts ? He only travelled as far as Capetown because that was the nearest port. The boat was crippled long before then.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:05   #40
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

I think he definitely got a bit of bad luck on both of his voyages. It happens
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:39   #41
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

I have a cruiser that I race against many diverse boats, and the results are generally fair. PHRF (or a measurement handicap system) allows this to happen. Generally, you want to race against similar boats (ULDBs, cruisers, racer-cruisers, etc.) since in some conditions, a type of boat will always win against another type of boat in certain conditions.

So, to your point: I would use the PHRF rating of the boat as a quick measure of relative speed. You'll see tons of difference between true cruisers (generally because they don't go upwind well) compared to more all-round boats (J-boats, Beneteaus). Your current boat probably rates around 144, and you might want to look for a boat that rates closer to 108-120. You can always slow a fast boat down, but it's really hard (and expensive) to make a slow boat fast

Cheers,

Chuck Hawley
Alerion Express 38 Yawl "Surprise" (rates 120 sec/mi)
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:52   #42
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

The Cal 40 is a great choice. The specs say 5'7" draft, but most listings say 6' which must be fully loaded. The original rig was to the CCA rule and had a single spreader mast with a long boom resulting in a good size low aspect main with end boom sheeting. It's a great rig for a cruising boat. The low aspect keel and balanced spade rudder make her point well with moderate draft and she has the reputation for surfing for long stretches with tiller steering. She must be really well balanced and able to steer with a light helm. Hull #1 won the SORC in 1963, not as a rule beater, but as a fast boat. It was the crossover boat from the full keel of most CCA rule boats to the fin keel. The CCA rule produced good cruising boats, the IOR rule did not.
Last but not least, the Cal 40 has very nice lines- a generous sheer, spoon bow, counter transom, and a cabin house about even with the top of the stem. She has a low house with wide side decks and a large cockpit. The only thing that makes her less than perfect as a cruising boat, but which adds to her sea kindly performance, is the narrow beam which makes her a small 40 down below.
I've got more info on the Cal 40 if you are interested.
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:57   #43
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Hawley View Post
I have a cruiser that I race against many diverse boats, and the results are generally fair. PHRF (or a measurement handicap system) allows this to happen. Generally, you want to race against similar boats (ULDBs, cruisers, racer-cruisers, etc.) since in some conditions, a type of boat will always win against another type of boat in certain conditions.

So, to your point: I would use the PHRF rating of the boat as a quick measure of relative speed. You'll see tons of difference between true cruisers (generally because they don't go upwind well) compared to more all-round boats (J-boats, Beneteaus). Your current boat probably rates around 144, and you might want to look for a boat that rates closer to 108-120. You can always slow a fast boat down, but it's really hard (and expensive) to make a slow boat fast

Cheers,

Chuck Hawley
Alerion Express 38 Yawl "Surprise" (rates 120 sec/mi)
His boat rates 174 according to New England PHRF. Same as a Catalina 30 with Tall Mast.
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Old 12-06-2016, 09:20   #44
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

Someone already posted a Pacific Seacraft 37, I second that choice but with a deep draft.
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:17   #45
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Re: A cruiser you can race?

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Do you know the last year that the "first" models were made? Did any of them have sugar scoop sterns that you can walk through?
First models are still being produced, but the newer ones are naturally more expensive. The first ones with sugar scoops were built in the 90's, but the interior styles at that time featured curved settees in the main salon that precluded their use as sea berths. Also at that time, shoal draft keels had wings. Not a good combination of features in my opinion.
In the early 2000's, another design iteration came out that was much improved. The 40.7 is a really quick boat, but the rig is a handful for a shorthanded crew, and it might be more that you're looking to spend. The 36.7 is also fast, more manageable, but with a little less room.
2002 Beneteau First 36.7 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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