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Old 06-09-2012, 12:48   #16
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

Sir: You are a newbee, don't know boats, and are short on cash but long on enthusiasm?
I submit your early enthusiasm , even if it lasts for a few years, will probably not be enough.
Listen to what others are saying here before you embark upon the Sea of Broken Dreams ; yes,two here have suggested that your proposal might be doable but please note that they both are now sailing fiberglass boats that are smaller( less displacement) than any Ingrid.
There, I just added 10 years to your life.
Signed: An ex slave.
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Old 06-09-2012, 13:38   #17
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

Aloha and welcome to the forum of many opinions!
Ingrid is a big heavy hard to single hand and hard to steer in tight spots boat. I was lucky enough to sail aboard a 38 ketch Ingrid in some pretty severe weather. If it hadn't had a monitor windvane to help with the steering our arms would have fallen off. It's saving grace was it had a sturdy fiberglass hull and decks and cabin.
I've owned and lived aboard a wood ketch and there is a lot of maintenance depending on the previous owner's care and its original fastenings. I loved my old wood ketch but had to sell it because I had to transfer to the opposite coast and would need to leave it for at least 3 years.
In my opinion there is nothing worse than having a beautiful sailing craft and having to work on it instead of sailing it.
Please find something smaller and easier to maintain to get you started. There are so many fiberglass boats on the market now in very good condition and much cheaper than they were 5 years ago. You can find one that you'll love eaqually to the Ingrid.
kind regards,
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Old 06-09-2012, 19:53   #18
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

It sounds to me you really are not hearing the nay-sayers.
Your 22g's will evaporate in a heartbeat and you will forever be chasing the cash, time and resources to maintain that boat.
In 1971 a friend who did not know how to sail, bought an Ingrid in Honolulu (maybe the same boat?) and I was really excited; I wanted to sail that boat!
I had a 65' Wm. Hand gaff ketch built in 1909 at the time, so I had considerable experience w/ wood boats.
On a 15 to 20 knot day we took out the Ingrid, on the lee side of Oahu and out into the Molokai channel, and boy was I disappointed!
First impression; she hobby-horsed so badly that I could barely steer as I needed to hold on. A pretty slow and uncomfortable boat, though truly a beautiful one, for sure.
Now the nitty gritty; wood boats must be hauled out and the bottom painted every year without fail. That costs money; bottom paint is around $250.00 a gallon & a 37' boat of that hull type might need 3 gallons.
As for the comment by IlontheSF, they probably keep the boat in SF all year, a place where the sun and elements are kind to varnish and wood; not so in the tropics & Caribbean. Your beloved Ingrid will become a maintenance nightmare if you take her to the tropics.
There are so many reasons not to get into this boat and only one reason to get into her; love!
Be practical, find a glass boat (and trust me I HATE glass, even though I own one) like a Westsail 32 if you must have a double-ender. Don't worry about the rig so much; each has it's benifits and detractions, so choose a boat based on your important needs like livability, storage space, a good galley and comfortable beds, etc.
Good luck.
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Old 06-09-2012, 23:03   #19
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Don't be put off. If it were me I'd go for it. The most important thing is that the hull was built right in the first place and has been maintained consistently along the way. You've got to be able to talk to the old owner or maybe even the owner before that to get a history of what's gone wrong in the past. It does have to be understood that a cheap boat is no longer cheap once you realize you have to replace the masts or keel or some such thing. However if everything is in good nik don't be put off by it's wooden hull. I have a wooden boat about the same dimensions and wouldn't trade it for anything. Truly. There is something different about sailing a wooden boat, and an extra warmth when living aboard. I haven't sailed this design that you're talking about however heavy displacement boats like that are probably going to be safe in a big sea but not so fast around the harbour. so what. You can have a look at my ketch and if you want someone to talk you into it then you know where to find me.
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:55   #20
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

Once again, thank you for all your comments. And for those of you who've kindly commented that I'm "not listening to the nay-sayers" please know that every post is being taken under advisement both good and bad. I am aware that there are issues with this kind of set-up in a wood boat and that to consider this kind of purchase a person should consider it cautiously with eyes wide open (which is why I posted my question to begin with!)


I am also aware that when it comes to maintaining one's boat and the time required to do so, the threshold between acceptable and excessive will vary tremendously within the community as a whole. I do believe that I am the type of person who would likely have a higher threshold than many when it comes to this investment of blood, sweat and tears.


That is why I've asked that everyone could not only respond with their opinion, but to also quantify how they arrived at their opinion. I do not mind putting in a reasonable amount of work into something like this (if I ultimately choose this path). The main purpose of this thread is to carefully and accurately determine what expectations one should reasonably assume when going into something like this.


At the end of the day I would likely heed the advice communicated by posts like capta and others. I do not want to purchase a boat that performs poorly, will cost an arm and a leg to own, will be inherently problematic, or won't fulfill my needs.


But I want to make sure that my decision is fully informed before I give up on it because their are many things I do find attractive about the boat. Yes, if the boat has to be hauled out every year to put on 3 gallons of paint at $250/gallon it is a major consideration. However, if the boat meets all my needs for a purchase price of $20k when other comparables that I've been attracted to thus far seem to be clocking in at, let's say $40k or $50k - that difference buys a lot of paint and other upgrades (after all every boat still needs to be hauled out periodically as well - just maybe not as frequently). My initial capital outlay is far less and thus allows me to get into the market a lot sooner than I might otherwise be able to. I can't spend $40, $50, or $60 k right now (but I do earn enough where I can afford to maintain quite comfortably now and in the future)...that is an advantage for me.


Capta, if you don't mind sharing more of your thoughts about the other negatives you alluded to I would certainly appreciate it. (Things like the boat "hobby horsing" might very well be specifically attributed to the boat you sailed in Molokai - I haven't heard any one else communicate that issue yet so it might be worth taking out on a sea-trial. Also, could you elaborate the issues experienced with wooden boats in tropical climes?)


What would be a disaster is getting into something that is inherently problematic or will become such a black hole money pit that the life cycle cash flow doesn't make sense compared to other purchases. However, while I'm not in the habit of throwing away 20 grand, on the whole grand scheme of things it isn't a huge risk - I could make a far worse financial decision when making a boat purchase than this because it could always be sold again)


All long term and successful marriages require hard work, sacrifice and forgiveness. I can handle putting elbow grease and love into maintaining and beautifying a boat that shows character and will do what I need it to do. What I don't want to do is marry an old hag that everyone knew would never meet any of my expectations.
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:09   #21
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Originally Posted by bruce smith View Post
Fastening sickness is very serious. 60 yo galv screws, uh uh.
I may be the last person to talk a person out of an Inbred, but rust is as bad as rot for wood. And the oak frames are also probably due for re newing. Betcha they are black from rust.
The hull and rig are suited to each other. If she was bronze fastened and had other than oak frames, I'd say go for it.
If I go check it out I'll look for the rust. Thanks for the tip.

Is there a reason for the nickname Inbred? Is there a reputation these boats have that one needs to be aware of?
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:12   #22
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

For 20G there have been some pretty good boats around here in the PNW. Recently an Alberg 35 that had a lot of work done, mainly just the rig needed stepped/ gone through before relaunch. $18k asking. Faster, more popular, more resellable...
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:12   #23
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Wooden boats with galvanized fasteners! You are asking for trouble. I disagree with JDS61. My first boat was a 1950 Herreshoff 6 meter 7/8th sloop that was mahogany over oak and was galvanized fastenend. In a boat that age circa 1956 you will undoubtably have some issues with your oak frames and planks. I certainly did and ALL my gavanized fasteners had to be drilled out.

You are just asking for trouble. If you look and are patient you could possibly come across something like this.

TAYANA T37 Pilothouse Ketch in Sailboats | eBay Motors

The pilothouse makes her a rare bird.

RT
Is the galvanized fasteners an issue that can easily be detected upon inspection? If it isn't showing these symptoms after 50 years what is the likelihood that it would develop any issues, and can this be preventable with proper maintenance?

And yes, I'd love to find a Tayana. Unfortunately I haven't seen anything for the last year that hasn't been 4 to 5 times my price range to date.
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:15   #24
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
For 20G there have been some pretty good boats around here in the PNW. Recently an Alberg 35 that had a lot of work done, mainly just the rig needed stepped/ gone through before relaunch. $18k asking. Faster, more popular, more resellable...
Yes, I saw that one but was too late with my query.

What is the reputation of the Albergs?
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:19   #25
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Originally Posted by BozSail View Post
You might consider looking at a Pearson 35 made from 1969 to about 1981. They are fiberglass and pretty sturdy. Not as big as the 38 footer you're looking at, but a good and solid boat. And... you can probably pick one up that is well within your budget. Try th link below and scroll down to the 35 footers. I'm sure the selling prices of these boats is well below the asking prices (as is true for all used boat sales today).

Pearson sailboats for sale by owner.

Good luck with your search.
Thanks for the tip. I haven't seen too many Pearsons for sale out my way but will keep an eye out for them. Are they a good candidate for eventual Caribbean or bluewater cruising?
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Old 08-09-2012, 14:04   #26
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Originally Posted by Carogan View Post
Yes, I saw that one but was too late with my query.

What is the reputation of the Albergs?
They are getting a little long in the tooth, but very popular, known to be sweet designs and have a good rep.
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Old 08-09-2012, 14:10   #27
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

Carogan, what we have here is a failure to communicate. You are potentially about to purchase a money pit against many peoples advice. Advice of those who have been around wooden boats all their lives. The fact that you want it for the Carribean only adds to your problems. Worms and UV will play havoc above and below the waterline.

Beware of a pretty face. It's only skin deep. Galvanized fasteners is just a part of the problems you will experience with a boat of this age. Fasteners that rust will turn your oak ribs and timbers black and will have to be sistered. This will have the same effect on your planks if they are mahogany. If the boats topsides or interior is freshly painted be suspect. I know because in the ignorance of my youth I was there.

I respect the fact that you are willing to invest your blood, sweat, tears and money but believe me your upkeep will take away from your sailing experiences. Know that even if the boat checks out under survey you should be prepared to have her for the long haul because, after all, what you will have is a 1956 wooden boat that will be very, very difficult to sell.

Unless you are familar with wooden boats to the point that you can do the repairs yourself and consider her a keeper, I would walk away with no regrets be patient and look for FG boat.

It IS a buyers market...

RT
PS You can thank me later....
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Old 08-09-2012, 18:30   #28
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

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Carogan, what we have here is a failure to communicate. You are potentially about to purchase a money pit against many peoples advice. Advice of those who have been around wooden boats all their lives. The fact that you want it for the Carribean only adds to your problems. Worms and UV will play havoc above and below the waterline.

Beware of a pretty face. It's only skin deep. Galvanized fasteners is just a part of the problems you will experience with a boat of this age. Fasteners that rust will turn your oak ribs and timbers black and will have to be sistered. This will have the same effect on your planks if they are mahogany. If the boats topsides or interior is freshly painted be suspect. I know because in the ignorance of my youth I was there.

I respect the fact that you are willing to invest your blood, sweat, tears and money but believe me your upkeep will take away from your sailing experiences. Know that even if the boat checks out under survey you should be prepared to have her for the long haul because, after all, what you will have is a 1956 wooden boat that will be very, very difficult to sell.

Unless you are familar with wooden boats to the point that you can do the repairs yourself and consider her a keeper, I would walk away with no regrets be patient and look for FG boat.

It IS a buyers market...

RT
PS You can thank me later....
With all due respect...


I am not going to do anything "against many people's advice" unless I am convinced that it is the right thing for me to do. Furthermore, if I do choose to not purchase this boat it appears that this would also be "against many people's advice" as well because there are posters who have been around wooden boats all their lives who are offering opposing viewpoints from you. I won't (and don't) dismiss your views necessarily - but I don't dismiss their's either.


Just so that you know, I don't necessarily accept anyone's opinions at face value unless they provide some back up and logic that can be critically analyzed.


Your first post didn't really do that (it only said that it would be a lot of work without really getting into why) so I tend not to give a whole lot of weight to those kinds of comments outside of recognizing that I need to keep my eyes open and my head up. To just say that the boat will take a lot of work doesn't mean anything to me unless you can give me more info so that I can quantify it.

As we all know a lot of people tend to express their views like this without really explaining how or why they arrive at their conclusions, and because of this it is always a good idea to critically analyze their thoughts before ever making a rush to judgement. Sometimes people express their reservations about "big problems" when, after peeling away the layers of the problem, it turns out that many of these "big problems" aren't so big after all. I am going to make sure that I really understand the problem before I do anything (hence why I continue to make further queries.)


On the other hand your last post here provided more useful and insightful information than your first and is the kind of thoughts I will consider, along with many other very useful posts from other members on here. (I've also received some very good pm's from some members that have given me a lot more insight as well.) But I won't necessarily just run to some conclusion just because a member on here says "don't do it".

This doesn't mean that I have made up my mind and I'm going to just jump in and make a foolish purchase (as a matter of course I'm likely not going to do this based on what I've researched).

So to make a long story short I've never failed to communicate nor has anyone whose posted their thoughts on here. I just wished sometimes that people would be happy to simply share their experiences and allow the asker to make their own decision rather than forcefeed a decision down their throat.
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Old 08-09-2012, 18:52   #29
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

I had a feeling you would take it that way. At least I got your attention.

Like I said, chose wisely.

Good luck.

RT
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:51   #30
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Re: 37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

Be sure your surveyor is a wood boat guy. You do not need an expensive list of ground tackle , sails, and galley stuff.
He has to get down into the floor timbers, frame sockets, he will need to pull a few screws, (if it is even possible) and I would insist on a few areas being disced off. White oak is problematic . I have taken a lot of it OFF boats.
Yes, be aware of fresh paint , and also fresh ospho.
I use "Inbred" as a term of endearment. My own Venus Ketch is very similar to Ingrid. Slack bilges, heavy displacement, double ender.
All boats have a weakness somewhere, True double enders ( not canoe sterns) will hobby horse , due to short overhangs.
This boat is not slow. Compared to modern boats , she is not a racer, but she is capable of 160 -180 mile days.
One can omit varnish on a woody. One can paint the bottom with epoxy resin to make a worm barrier. One can get 5 gallon tins of surplus bottom paint for $200. One can re cut used sails , saving big bucks. Lotta ways to save money. I have cruised in the Caribbean for 17 of the past 35 years on wood boats , I am not wealthy.
Perhaps come over to "Wooden Boat Forum" and ask about the boat. Someone may even know it . Bring pics.
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