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philiosophy · 11-05-2018, 22:11

I will say just a couple things. I started with a 30’ S-2.It was a great starter boat. A 35’ S-2 weighs literally twice the 30’. The man that advised you to get as small a boat as you could stand was wise words indeed. Reason is that hole in the water you will be filling with your money gets real big real fast. Certainly a person who is very handy and very good at finding cheap used parts is an advantage. That however does not negate the fact the bigger boat just costs a bunch more money to buy sails and most everything else you will need to buy to keep it up. Buying a boat that has already had a repower, refit etc. will save money as it cant be easily recouped by the person who did it. The last thing I will say is as I have cruised around the world and been in a different shipyard every two years doing the bottom I have noticedthose production Coastal Cruiser boats, Beneteau, Hunter, Catalina, Dufour etc having their Rudders worked on. Most recently a Beneteau 42 of 2008 vintage. A Spade ruddder sticking out of the bottom of your boat without any support on the bottom is problematic. Truth is thoseboats have been everywhere I have been so they are doing it. Just something to consider when choosing a boat especially if you are world cruising. I think the Passport is a good choice and they even made a Passport 42 with a round stern for Passage making.

Pizzazz · 11-05-2018, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiosophy

The last thing I will say is as I have cruised around the world and been in a different shipyard every two years doing the bottom I have noticed those production Coastal Cruiser boats, Beneteau, Hunter, Catalina, Dufour etc having their Rudders worked on. Most recently a Beneteau 42 of 2008 vintage. A Spade ruddder sticking out of the bottom of your boat without any support on the bottom is problematic. Truth is those boats have been everywhere I have been so they are doing it. Just something to consider when choosing a boat especially if you are world cruising.

There are many, many more coastal cruiser boats than passage makers, so your observation may just reflect the relative abundance of coastal cruisers.

Anyway you look at it, a spade rudder is more efficient which translates into less autopilot draw and other benefits. Modern fighter jets and ships all have "spade" control surfaces. You can't stop progress, spade rudders are just better and strong enough for most cruisers.

ilenart · 11-05-2018, 23:08

I used to own a Roberts 45 and now have a UFO 34, so are pretty close to your comparisons. Both were built in 1979 so lots of maintenance, which I try to do myself, though there are plenty of items that you need a professional. Looking at the detailed cost analysis I kept (I am an Accountant by background so this stuff is second nature to me) some items were the same and some were more expensive as follows:

Yacht club fees, general maintence, fuel - about the same
Insurance, mooring - 25% more expensive
haulout and paint - 100% more expensive
Major maintenance / replacements (ie major engine repairs, osmosis, new sails, etc) - 100-200% more expensive.

For me the overall annual costs have been about the same, however that was mainly as I carried out minimal work on the 45ft, where I have been improving the UFO 34 considerably for offshore use. If I had been improving the Roberts 45 to the same extend I believe the costs would of been 50-75% more expensive than the UFO 34.

If I were you I would be looking at the smallest yacht that could do what you were planning on doing over the next 5-10 years. This has worked for me in moving down from the 45ft to the 34ft yacht.

Hope this helps, Ilenart

sailorcherry · 11-05-2018, 23:33

Yep and imho, the cost difference is not exponential like many claim. That is my experience and my observation from talking with a lot of sailing friends (who do a good chunk of work themselves and shop around, aka avoid west marine outside major sales). However, if you are hiring out all the work, then it's more the norm that it's a good deal more for the bigger.

Further, to me, the cost increase is definitely worth it for the space for example we have a large separate shower, with seat and storage, very handy for the obvious but also a huge space for wet things to dry out for hours or a day that the 35 you cannot because your shower is in your head. At this size you also have a nice owners berth (I rec pullman). It is not just living, think storage, I've tons of offshore storage for months of provisions and large items no problem. Better sailing of course, speeds, stability, comfort in not so great seastate. I've a large wide flush fore and side decks, I can carry a 11-12' dinghy and a 18' kayak, no ugly stern davit's either getting in the way of views or swimming off the open transom. That's what I mean about space, able to of course fit more stuff or just a bit more than the 35 but with more space to move about or access it better.

One more thing about the bigger boat...I have observed more people (in the liveboard community especially) get cabin fever on their 32'-37' sailboat and go out to eat/drink more often....which can eat up that cost savings of the smaller boat.

The other thing is we actually hauled out and compared costs to a friend's boat, mid-high 30s. We cost the same. How?! Well if you have the time to take sail/motor 40-60nm outside your local sailing/boating region it may cost you less than the 35 in the busy area.Yard labor rates were over 30% less. See how it's not always this blanket statement it will cost you 10% of its original purchase price?

Don't wanna take my word for it? Then a REALLY good, well documented example of an experienced cruising and living aboard family who owned a 35/45 (actually if memory serves me 36 and 51) is Rich Boren and their Formosa 51 (he reps the cruising RO system). Check out his blog and his figures. Backs up what I am talking bout.

The key though is to not buy a boat too big and affords you other comforts (boat toys, dodger, rigid bimini, solar) for you and your wife, partner, kids whatever you got going on. And I rec light displacement not full keel slug. Especially singlehanding, way less stressful!

If I were you I would try this:
Do a pros and cons list of owning either (I am guessing you have one of each picked out?).
Then a wish, want, don't need it list.
Then figure out what you are doing with it, realistically, liveaboard, cruising (where, aka do you need to haul out for hurricane season), just daysailing/weekender.
Price each boat with each use, if you are an Excel user its an easy way to tweak those figures when things or ideas come up.

Good Luck!

**a64pilot** · 12-05-2018, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Anyway you look at it, a spade rudder is more efficient which translates into less autopilot draw and other benefits. Modern fighter jets and ships all have "spade" control surfaces. You can't stop progress, spade rudders are just better and strong enough for most cruisers.

Not all spades are out in the open and vulnerable, that is the boats design, not the rudder.
My Island packets rudder is a spade for example.

Cheechako · 12-05-2018, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

There are many, many more coastal cruiser boats than passage makers, so your observation may just reflect the relative abundance of coastal cruisers.

Anyway you look at it, a spade rudder is more efficient which translates into less autopilot draw and other benefits. Modern fighter jets and ships all have "spade" control surfaces. You can't stop progress, spade rudders are just better and strong enough for most cruisers.

Huh? Fighter jets with un supported rudders? Dont most have tails (skegs) in front of the rudder?