$20k boat VS $60k boat

[Scout 30]

My hope is to eventually move to electric with a generator & a large solar system. Of course the goal would be to use the genny as little as possible but no matter how good batteries & solar cells get I think a generator will always be a requirement for reliable cruising with an electric motor.

[Fishbreath]

1978 Islander Freeport Center Cockpit Sail New and Used Boats for Sale
Love the layout of these boats...

[jreiter190]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

From what I have read, the diesel hybrid is probably even better for the engine, since it can always be run at its ideal speed. I have also seen setups that allow you to power with the electric at lower speeds and the diesel at higher speeds, to best balance power.

In the '70's I worked for Moss Landing Marine Laboratory in Ca. We got from Scripps Institute in La Jolla, a 103' YTM with the whole research layout. The coolest thing about ACONOSTOTA was, she was diesel electric. You could turn the screw 1/4 turn a minute if you wanted , and the big diesel ran at a continuous speed. I think you've come up with the right solution to a thread about buying a 20K boat or a 60K boat!

[Fishbreath]

Islander Freeport Center Cockpit

Love the layout of these boats..

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jreiter190

In the '70's I worked for Moss Landing Marine Laboratory in Ca. We got from Scripps Institute in La Jolla, a 103' YTM with the whole research layout. The coolest thing about ACONOSTOTA was, she was diesel electric. You could turn the screw 1/4 turn a minute if you wanted , and the big diesel ran at a continuous speed. I think you've come up with the right solution to a thread about buying a 20K boat or a 60K boat!

Diesel electric has been around for years. Ferry boats I know of but you aren't speaking small boats. The advantage was control since diesels don't like to idle. Weight was not a concern and a diesel could run a propulsion DC motor on both ends depending which was the bow or stern. For a small vessel is isn't practical.

[TitoSoto]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

My hope is to eventually move to electric with a generator & a large solar system. Of course the goal would be to use the genny as little as possible but no matter how good batteries & solar cells get I think a generator will always be a requirement for reliable cruising with an electric motor.

Exactly. By the way the battery conversion is not included in my $20k or $40k estimates. I will do the conversion myself for about $5k (thats with selling the current engine). Ive done plenty of electric conversions on cars and this can't be much different, and frankly, probably simpler since its all pretty much centralized.

And your correct, current battery technology is EXTREMELY cost prohibitive right now. BUT, a $2k Honda generator isn't...

So I am calculating to have enough range for around 10 miles. After that, generator time. But honestly, 75% of all sailing for me is just 2 mile round trips in and out of the marina on power, the rest being actual sailing.

[TitoSoto]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Sorry to drift the thread, but the best point made in my opinion was the one that the $60,000 boat will still be worth 60K a little later while the 20K boat with 40K of up-grades is still a 20K boat.

This is what I am worried about. There is no way to raise the value of a boat by doing some "restoration" then is there?

Then again, a 20k boat doesn't depreciate like a 60k does.

[sveinutne]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Well, Norske mand i hus og hytte, it helps to be Scowegian ;-0)!

But enlighten us: Just what IS the wind regime in Trondheimsfjorden?

TrentePieds

.

Trente Pieds,
There is no specific wind regime in the Trondheims fjord. It is very unpredictable. I was once in a race, and we had some problems with the lines when we were changing genaker for a smaller sail, so we sailed with only the main sail when we entered the last narrow stretch from Rødberg to Ørlandet. The wind was only 10 m/s before entering, but it suddenly picked up speed to maybe the double. We were doing 10 knots with only the main sail up, with the wind from behind. One boat in the race broke the mast and one the boome, and many got their sail torn. After one hour the wind came back down to normal level, and we got third place, but that was just luck. If the 120% had been up it could have been bad.
I am impressed about your knowledge about Norwegian history; I think you know it better than me. I was not very interested in history in school, but when I got older, I got more interested.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by TitoSoto

This is what I am worried about. There is no way to raise the value of a boat by doing some "restoration" then is there?

Then again, a 20k boat doesn't depreciate like a 60k does.

If you add EP to either you will knock the crap outta resale anyway.

Sent from my NEXUS 5 whilst sitting in my armchair tied to the dock.

[haiqu]

Originally Posted by TitoSoto

Exactly. By the way the battery conversion is not included in my $20k or $40k estimates. I will do the conversion myself for about $5k (thats with selling the current engine). Ive done plenty of electric conversions on cars and this can't be much different, and frankly, probably simpler since its all pretty much centralized.

And your correct, current battery technology is EXTREMELY cost prohibitive right now. BUT, a $2k Honda generator isn't...

So I am calculating to have enough range for around 10 miles. After that, generator time. But honestly, 75% of all sailing for me is just 2 mile round trips in and out of the marina on power, the rest being actual sailing.

So, you want to generate 110/220VAC, convert that to 48VDC, then charge batteries to run an electric motor that uses an electronic drive controller huh? On a yacht, at sea?

Better you than me buddy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this isn't the way to go. Trust me, I'm a (retired) electronics engineer and have done ALL the study I need to evaluate this, having once considered it myself.

Get a nice reliable diesel and leave that stuff to the weekend bay sailors who tie up at a powered mooring every night.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by TitoSoto

This is what I am worried about. There is no way to raise the value of a boat by doing some "restoration" then is there?

Then again, a 20k boat doesn't depreciate like a 60k does.

A dock neighbor converted his ~ $35K (?) powerboat from twin gas to twin diesel, which perforce included a new genset, too. Cost, about $100K. Value afterwards, about $40K. (Or maybe it started at $60K and changed to $65K, whatever. Lots of work and $$$, much better boat for USING, not much additional value for reselling.)

Originally Posted by haiqu

So, you want to generate 110/220VAC, convert that to 48VDC, then charge batteries to run an electric motor that uses an electronic drive controller huh? On a yacht, at sea?

Better you than me buddy.

Get a nice reliable diesel and leave that stuff to the weekend bay sailors who tie up at a powered mooring every night.

If you re-read his post #81, sounds like he IS a weekend day sailor. Two miles under power, out and then back, 10 miles max capability for reserve, with sailing in between, on shorepower every night, doesn't sound like much stress on an electric set-up.

-Chris

[jreiter190]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Diesel electric has been around for years. Ferry boats I know of but you aren't speaking small boats. The advantage was control since diesels don't like to idle. Weight was not a concern and a diesel could run a propulsion DC motor on both ends depending which was the bow or stern. For a small vessel is isn't practical.

Please don't bang your head and try not to get frustrated. Just trying to get all the facts and opinions. Since you have such a strong opinion on the matter, perhaps you can take a run at answering the question of why a hybrid system works in a small auto but won't work in a small craft? Seriously, I,for one, would like to know ,and you seem to have the practical knowledge to answer the question. Not just that it won't but WHY it won't? Thanks, Cadence

[jreiter190]

Originally Posted by haiqu

So, you want to generate 110/220VAC, convert that to 48VDC, then charge batteries to run an electric motor that uses an electronic drive controller huh? On a yacht, at sea?

Better you than me buddy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this isn't the way to go. Trust me, I'm a (retired) electronics engineer and have done ALL the study I need to evaluate this, having once considered it myself.

Get a nice reliable diesel and leave that stuff to the weekend bay sailors who tie up at a powered mooring every night.

Haiqu, being an electrical engineer, I'd like to see you answer the same question. Not just it won't work, WHY won't it work? Appreciate your patience with people without your knowledge. Enlighten us please.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by jreiter190

Wern't we all realizing that batt. Powered motored weren't sufficient and that diesel electric had been successful for a long time. Wouldn't the same small hybrid system that powers a car be directly translated to a boat? How much power is being sent to the drive wheels and what is the range of these automobiles?

I've had a Prius for the last five years, and I have really studied the thing as it fascinates me, it really shouldn't work as well as it does, but it does work very well, and using GPS and mapping there may be even better to come.
We always average better than 50 MPG in the thing, it actually has very good acceleration mostly due to it's two electric motors torque and is an honest five passenger automobile, and has a lot of cargo room.
Compared to our little Miata that gets 25 MPG, the Prius is stunning.
But the things that make the Prius so successful won't work on a boat.
1. Prius uses regenerative braking, IE it uses the kinetic energy of braking to re-charge the batteries, so you don't lose so much energy during braking like a normal car. Boats essentially do not do much stop and go boating, now I believe there are successful Hybrid tugs as tugs do a lot of stop and go boating, and spend most of their time motoring around on a small percentage of available power, but that isn't us of course.
2. Anytime you lift your foot off the accelerator of a Prius, the engine stops, everything on a Prius is electrically driven, from AC to the engine water pump, so engine off operation is no different than engine on.
You don't lift the accelerator on boats though, you set the throttle and go.
3. Automobiles typically use anything from 10 to 75 percent of power with much time being spent at low power and very little time spent at high power, so the Prius can size the combustion engine too small for high power usage, but use the batteries and the electric motors for high power when needed, of course high power is limited as the battery rapidly discharges, but usual use of high power in an auto is for seconds, like a passing situation, getting on the highway etc. If you need high power on a boat, often its for extended times, like powering into waves, current etc.

[jreiter190]

Thanks, A64Pilot,for giving reasons why it won't, for the moment, work in a boat. Like a lot of things in history that wern't practical at the time but through R&D became reality, I think the problems will be overcome in time like your Prius, and future sailors will have electric power propelling their boats. Just not right now.