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Old 15-09-2019, 05:59   #1
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1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

I have a budget of around EUR 150'000.- with which I am still looking for a singlehandable, robust and simple aluminium cruiser.

So far I have been lacking good DIY skills (I see that I will have to work on this as a boat owner) which is why I thought it would be unwise to go for a >10 year old boat as maintenance will likely overwhelm me. Also, I will still work 70% so sailing should make up the other 30% and not boat maintenance.


Anyway, I've found this https://www.yachtall.com/de/boot/koo...8-casco-317948. And here's some more information on this hull: | Dick Koopmans Jachtontwerper

To start with, I would simply be interested in a few opinions from people with more knowledge on aluminium and boatbuilding than me.

Is there a chance this hull is likely to be suitable for my project and I will find a boatyard (the hull is located not far from some well known Dutch yards) that could turn it into a decent yacht within my budget range or are chances high that this would end up in a disaster and wasted money? In the latter case I would continue working 100% for another two or three years and wait for a better opportunity with a higher budget.

Any ideas highly appreciated! Thank you very much!
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Old 15-09-2019, 07:51   #2
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

If you want a yard to finish it, it's going to be a lot of money. Those 125k (because you paid 25k for the hull and engine) are going to be gone in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1. If you had the electrical and building ability (wood paneling, fg work, etc) it would be a great DIY project. 25k is not a bad price for a solid hull and what appears to be a brand new engine. If you want to enjoy spending the next 3-5 years of your life finishing it (time frame dependent on how much time and money you can throw at it).

Follow the thinking: you don't know what you don't know.

Youre better off with an older well cared for boat.

But, it could still be a good deal if you have 150k. I would do the following:

- find a yard close by to you and get them to give you a budget for finishing the interior (woodwork, fiberglass, etc) ... multiply whatever they budget by 2. It's really hard to know how much such a thing would cost with all the labor in by the yard.

- then find someone to do plumbing and budget that, multiply by 1.5. Again, this is not as easy. You need vents, inlets, hoses, outlets, tanks, head, showerhead, galley stuff, etc, etc.

- There's electrical. This is a big one. Lot's of cables, lights, panels, batteries, systems DC/AC, charger, etc, etc, etc. It's a BIG ONE. Budget it, multiply by 1.5

- factor in transportation to that yard, whatever that implies

- budget around 10k for that diesel install. You need tank, hoses, filter, exhaust, etc

- then add 15k for sails, 20k for a rig, 5k for a dinghy, 4k for an outboard, 5k for basic running rigging, 10k electronics

- think about winches, that is easily 10-15k for the basic deck ones (2 big, 2 smaller), I tried to account for the mast ones in rigging.

- 10k for basic ammenities such as cushions, mattress, galley stuff, etc. (everyday living)

- 10k for windlass, anchor, chain, exterior lights, fenders, etc

That would more or less give you an idea of where you would be at. This is a very rough estimate, but it will still require A LOT of work, A LOT of supervision, and think you would still need to be ahead around 30-50k for unforseen stuff haha.

Bear in mind that the fact your boat will be new old stock will heavily reflect on its price. On making it much lower than what costed you! So you better keep it for a good time to offset that impact.

The good thing is you will have a custom beautiful boat . Just keep in mind it will eat all of your time, energy and willpower for the next 2 years, and that's thinking of outsourcing most of it.
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Old 15-09-2019, 09:31   #3
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Gaucho, thank you for this honest assessment. I appreciate this a lot.

I am in Switzerland. No suitable boatyard around here. Also, no point in bringing the boat here. That hull is in the Netherlands and there are good, serious aluminium boatyards within a few miles of where the hull is.

I have written to one of these yards and waiting for an answer.

I understand that my budget will probably be a limiting factor. I could afford more but I think it's unwise. This would be a custom boat with a long keel and resale value will be low. If it's not doable in an affordable way then better not.
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Old 15-09-2019, 11:00   #4
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

I have managed a very similar project three years ago although our hull was much bigger (46').


You are asking the right question but you are asking it in the wrong place.


What you may want to do is go to the hull, inspect it, then talk to like five nearest boatyards in THAT AREA and ask them for quotes. Go back home, wait for the quotes and start planing from that point.



This will tell you what is financially viable what is not. You are highly unlikely to do it for less, yourself. Extremely.


You are lucky as the Netherlands have many small, efficient and financially sound boatyards.


Avoid doing any major jobs by yourself. You can always add some finishing touches later when the boat is afloat. Your time will come when the boat is 95% ready to go.



You are making much better use of your time staying on your present job and generating more cash. You may be good at it. Other people who are good at boat building do it better, cheaper, faster. That's why they are there and you are elsewhere.



Cheers,
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Old 15-09-2019, 12:09   #5
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

You referred to the site of Dick Koopmans, the designer. on his website is a graph that shows how much the building of various parts of the boat will cost.

I have build a bunch of ocean going one-offs over the years. From a very rough glance at this project and assuming that you want to keep things simple (I strongly recommend that), than you're looking at 3000-3500 hours of labor and about 100k in material cost. Assuming that you're looking to do this in the Netherlands, you can assume €50 per hour at a minimum. So count on €175.000 to have a yard finish this boat for you in a very simple fashion. Add forms of complexity and you'll find yourself doing a lot more maintenance down the road as well as cost of the building that will skyrocket and can easily be tripled if you don't watch it.
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Old 15-09-2019, 14:49   #6
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik de Jong View Post
You referred to the site of Dick Koopmans, the designer. on his website is a graph that shows how much the building of various parts of the boat will cost.

I have build a bunch of ocean going one-offs over the years. From a very rough glance at this project and assuming that you want to keep things simple (I strongly recommend that), than you're looking at 3000-3500 hours of labor and about 100k in material cost. Assuming that you're looking to do this in the Netherlands, you can assume €50 per hour at a minimum. So count on €175.000 to have a yard finish this boat for you in a very simple fashion. Add forms of complexity and you'll find yourself doing a lot more maintenance down the road as well as cost of the building that will skyrocket and can easily be tripled if you don't watch it.

Positive.



Matches exactly my earlier experience re the $ figures involved.


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Old 16-09-2019, 07:36   #7
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Alright, thank you for these figures.

Sure, Dutch craftmanship and as simple as it gets.

But if that means EUR 300K plus significant risks of unforeseen circumstances, the idea is pretty much off the table because for this amount I can almost get something totally new or a really well kept second hand with much lower risks.
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:38   #8
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Dick Koopmans is great !
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:55   #9
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

I'm an aluminum hull boater myself, and would recommend extensive internet searches using keyword: aluminum. Here's just one:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...acuja-3579571/
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Old 16-09-2019, 09:30   #10
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airjordi View Post
Alright, thank you for these figures.

Sure, Dutch craftmanship and as simple as it gets.

But if that means EUR 300K plus significant risks of unforeseen circumstances, the idea is pretty much off the table because for this amount I can almost get something totally new or a really well kept second hand with much lower risks.

Well kept s/h is a way less expensive way to go. Just look at what is available at botenbank. A well kept similar boat will cost you well below 100k, leaving quite some financial leeway for 'making one yours'. And think of the time saved.


The other way (finishing to a one off standard) is perfect if you want something that is otherwise not available on the market.


It is easier and safer to buy a s/h boat. But you loose the pleasures of a boat building project which are important to some owners.



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Old 16-09-2019, 09:31   #11
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmcshane View Post
I'm an aluminum hull boater myself, and would recommend extensive internet searches using keyword: aluminum. Here's just one:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...acuja-3579571/
Yes, but as mentioned before, I'm specifically looking for boat for singlehanded sailing. Well sheltered cockpit, preferably tiller-steered, very simple installations and potentially as low on maintenance as possible. 11 to 12 meters probably, to keep handling simple. And it shouldn't be too old, because my plan is to work 70% on my job and sail 30%. A >20yr old boat potentially overwhelms me right to start with because I first need to get used to serious boat maintenance. And I don't want to end up spending the 30% with a boat on the hard requiring endless work. The idea is to find a boat that gives me an easy start. As easy as possible. I know, there are well kept >20y old alu boats around but I lack the competence to distinguish them from potential wrecks. I would need an expert each time and this is a bit of a logistical challenge as most of these boats are not right around the corner.
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Old 16-09-2019, 11:09   #12
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

"The idea is to find a boat that gives me an easy start. As easy as possible."

I'd venture to say the Koopmans will not fit this bill.
My advice: Yachtworld.com

SailboatListings.com
https://boote-yachten.de/de/
to mention a few. I'm confident you'll fall in love with a finished hull.


I've read Jimmy Cornell about his experience with aluminum hulls: (https://cornellsailing.com/aventura/...cial-features/)
And I'm an avid reader and supporter of Phyllis and John at Attainable Adventure Cruising website: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/08/03/the-five-most-important-things-we-need-to-check-when-buying-a-boat

And of course, the boats for sale menu here at CF.
Cheers
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Old 16-09-2019, 13:45   #13
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Check out the 2005 DuJardain Ico Atlantis 43 on Yacht World. That boat is set up ok for a single guy.
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Old 16-09-2019, 18:25   #14
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

Nice yacht and certainly possible to finish cheaply depending on your taste and ability to shop well. If you could find a freelance boatbuilder that might cut your costs down as well.
Look at my Volkscruiser link on my webpage fore and aft surveyors We built that 32 foot yacht for around $30,000 and 18 months part time work. A rolled painted plywood interior, white exterior aluminium sign writing board for a head lining and 6mm Perspex for all the cupboard doors cuts the cost way down. I shopped hard every day on the net finding used or new/old stock to fit her out with. It’s not everyone’s taste, but we are still out there enjoying ourselves.
Gaucho has the costs pretty close if you are a big fat milk cow. But 9k for a dinghy and outboard. Heck we still row and enjoy it, that cost lest than $400 for a dinghy and oars.
Really it all depends on what you want and are happy with. There are plenty of second hand yachts that will work out way cheaper.
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Old 16-09-2019, 20:51   #15
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Re: 1992 Koopmans 38 casco for completion?

opinion... if you up your budget to €250000, you should be in the ball park.

Might cost less also as the boat may have built in tanks already.

Koopman/Dutch built boats are good quality; the Dutch do not know how to build poorly. GL :-)
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