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Old 26-05-2015, 00:35   #76
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

It's interesting that nobody seems to have questioned the ability of the manufacturer to even make repairs. Say the manufacturer has caught a bad layup or a faulty gelcoating of the coach roof before it was assembled to the boat. What are the chances of them interrupting a production line by 'fixing' the defective coach shell? Much more likely that they scrap the defective unit and start from scratch, which is not really scratch because the mold, precut glass and barrels of gelcoat and resin are already there, waiting for the next unit to be assembled.


The main reason modern production boats are so cheap (or is that inexpensive?) is that the corporations that own companies that build them have factored out the need for people who would be able to repair the defects described by the original poster.


So the manufacturer would either have to hire someone to make the repairs, or have someone on staff already (which I think unlikely for reasons described above), or be able to remove and install a new module to replace the defective one (which may be almost impossible, given some of the methyl-methacrylate glues favored by the industry today).


And the owner is still left with a 'repaired' 10 hour old boat! It's hard to imagine what that would do to my peace of mind in a serious weather situation...
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Old 26-05-2015, 05:29   #77
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

Jim I've questioned this and I don't believe it is possible to create a moulded gel coat deck grip finish. Many production boats have small repairs as part of the production process. Often different models have marks in the mould for fitting locations that aren't specific to all models. So the mark needs to be 'touched up'. These touch ups usually aren't obvious, but can still be seen on close inspection. Trying to replicate a whole deck to a moulded type finish would be virtually impossible.
As far as demanding a new replacement boat..not so easy. Production is scheduled in advance months before construction begins. Companies don't have stock boats of every layout and specification laying around the factory yard. They may have something 'similar' to what the OP ordered that might be an option, but even so it's a major pita to reconfigure, re register, redeliver etc etc.
For the OP. I've never heard of a major production company delivering something of the sort of substandard quality mentioned, apart from one smaller catamaran company that soon after went belly up, so I would take that as a positive that the company is likely to leave the situation rectified to your satisfaction, although it might take some time and a lot of stress on your part to get through it. One item I would be checking is your contract to determine late delivery fees payable to the buyer, and I would be letting the builders know I will be pursuing these fees, even though the contract states handover as the official delivery. I would argue the yacht hasn't been delivered until it is 'as ordered' and suitable for it's intended use. Good luck
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Old 26-05-2015, 05:51   #78
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

A good friend took delivery of a new production mono and the deck had bubbles pop up as we did the 4 hr delivery home.
Many in the textured grip from the size of a dime to a quarter.
The factory repairs were hopeless, never matched always looks terrible.
This boat sounds like a wreck.


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Old 26-05-2015, 07:10   #79
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

1. Naming manufacturer/model is not a problem as the truth of the statement is an absolute defense in any libel/slander suit.

2. Biggest mistake one can make and most people often do is to begin to lawyer up too late when many opportunities to get reimbursed are lost. Time is always on the side of the deeper pocket which in your case probably means the manufacturer and/or his insurer.

3. DO NOT settle for any cosmetic warranty repairs as it seems that for whatever reason this vessel is a lemon and as such will make future life miserable for any of its owners.

4. Find a young aggressive maritime attorney who is fresh out of law school with info and the latest cases. He/she may agree to pursue this case on a reduced fee/contingency mix basis and will have a great incentive to win and win big.

5. Sue early and often, to paraphraze an old saying, and include in your suit all the ancillary costs and damages i.e. your lost time/income from your business, attorney fees, losses related to untaken cruises etc (such as expenditures for equipment/supplies, airline tickets, food, etc.) Go overboard with all the legitimate losses if you must as you can always scale down your demands but can rarely increase them midway in litigation.

Good luck!

PS As an aside: most new houses take about 5-7 years to "settle", i.e. all the manufacturing kinks ironed out - from leaky new roofs and cracks in the basement to poorly installed windows and plumbing. Most construction/builders' crews have their bad days, tight schedules, lazy or inatentive kids and part-timers and hangover Mondays after the Superball so mistakes are made. In one of my old econ. class the professor cited statistics that a car manufactured on any given Monday has 40% greater chance of having defects than one made on any other day. I guess same applies to boats.
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Old 26-05-2015, 07:46   #80
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Oh of course it will be inspected by the builder, but asking Beneteau, Jeanneau, lagoon, FP etc if you can have a private surveyor inspect the build at stages would be like asking ford if you can have an engineer come inspect your car while it's being built.. Basically not an option. In fact they do sometimes allow a factory visit of not more than 1 hr, in the presence of the agent, but not to inspect the yachts build quality. Smaller volume builders are more likely to allow progress surveys so if that's a priority for a buyer, that's where they will have to shop.
World of difference between Ford producing a few million cars at an average price of $26k vs a boat builder putting out half a dozen 50'ers in the $500k-1million price range.

If you are about to sign the paperwork and you demand the right for your surveyor to inspect at certain stages, I'll bet you dollars to donuts they agree.
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Old 26-05-2015, 07:52   #81
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

Snowdrop,
Some potential causes of vibration are:
  • Rig is not tuned properly
  • Rudder and/or keel trailing edge shape are causing cavitation harmonics
  • Rudder(s) bearing is faulty
  • Twin rudders (if you have them) are out of alignment
  • Steering cables are lose
  • Saildrive rubber mounting gaskets are weak/faulty
  • Blade of folding/feathering prop (if you have one) is stuck 1/2 way open
  • Folding/feathering prop is causing it (some simply don't work with some boats)
  • Saildrive anode is broken causing imbalanced prop
  • Bow thruster tunnels are catching water and causing turbulence/harmonics
  • and [heaven forbid] keel bolt(s) are lose
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Old 26-05-2015, 07:55   #82
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
World of difference between Ford producing a few million cars at an average price of $26k vs a boat builder putting out half a dozen 50'ers in the $500k-1million price range.

If you are about to sign the paperwork and you demand the right for your surveyor to inspect at certain stages, I'll bet you dollars to donuts they agree.

Ok. I like donuts!
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Old 26-05-2015, 08:07   #83
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

I'm dieing here. Pics of the cracks pleaseeeeeeeee!!!!!
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Old 26-05-2015, 08:49   #84
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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We have just taken delivery of a 50 foot cruising yacht. She is brand new. Only motor sailed for 10 hours total since handover in very light winds and sea conditions. During the journey we experienced severe vibration and noise. Headed for nearest safe port where we are forced to stay.

Upon investigation we initially found cracks around the anti slip near the traveller. Next day we found another 28 cracks . We went out on a sea trial two days ago only to come back to port to find even more. This vessel now has over 30 separate fractures on her coach roof. These are on both sides.

Frankly I want to hand the boat back. I have been told not to sail her in strong winds by a surveyor. - so what's the point if she is not fit for purpose? The suggested repair process is is to cut off the foredeck and replace the anti slip. Sounds a massive job. Why should you have to tolerate this on a two day old boat?

Where do you stand legally? Manufacturer wants this to be a warranty issue.
What make and model?

Is the vibration and deck cracks related? Could there be something wrapped around the prop? Are these gel coat cracks or structural fractures?

You have asked very open ended questions.

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Old 26-05-2015, 08:52   #85
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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Thank you for all your kind words and advice - they are appreciated.

We have been told that the vibration issue may be down to a wooden bulkhead settling into place. There may be something to this as the noise and creaking has reduced significantly. But I remain sceptical about this explanation as the cause of the multiple fracturing.

Consumer law with regards fit for use, and free from minor defects etc... gives me some hope while investigations are underway.

Ironically I am starting to hope matters deteriorate to such an extent that a repair given the guarantees that will be required, will simply be not cost effective. Though perhaps I'm clutching at straws.
A bulkhead settling... You are being fed bs.

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Old 26-05-2015, 08:57   #86
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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The source and nature of vibration noise is important, as other posters have commented: Rig? Engine/shaft? What?

Contrary to popular belief, bigger is not [necessarily or even often!] stronger. Bigger boats have to be concomitantly more strongly built to take the extra stress loadings leverage and surface area confer. They often are not. Be conscious of that.

Andů as another poster mentioned: bulkheads NEVER have to "settle in"!!!!!!! If a bulkhead is MOVING it is a sign of a SERIOUS issue. Try and find out if anything happened in the history of this boat (so, during shipping and delivery) which may have compromised its structure. You have not had a structural survey prior to purchase. Get one now. It will help to arm you for your upcoming fight with the manufacturers. I will not comment on the legal side as I am not qualified to do so, but there seems quite a lot of good advice already on this thread.

Finally: I am very sorry for your disappointment, stress, and worry. Dreadful.
Structural engineering 101. Weight increases as the cube of length. Strength increases as the square of length. The bigger you build it the greater the stress.

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Old 26-05-2015, 08:59   #87
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

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Now I see why so many of you buy used boats. If they have that much to spend on a boat they could buy something 2 years old and have it all refit in 30 days and go sailing.

I vote for money back or a no holds barred fight against them. Then a different boat (used lightly)manufacturer with refit.
Indeed.

When we were shopping for a sub 50' center cockpit bluewater yacht we found few contenders. Add a constraint of solid wood interior and the new choices drop to zero.

We settled on a 30 year old Liberty 458. We couldn't be more pleased.

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Old 26-05-2015, 17:37   #88
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

What harm would be done by letting us know who manufactured your boat. If this is a know problem with other owners of the same model, you may have a better chance of fast recourse. Does it start with "H"?
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Old 26-05-2015, 18:14   #89
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

Okay ... now I get it ...

This is a joke, or a test to see what people would say ... right?

Cause there's no way I'm going to believe that someone with the money(or the financing), to buy a BRAND NEW 50 feet long yacht, doesn't have an attorney on retainer for the kinds of protection that people with this kind of money need.

Or is this a poor person who just won the lottery, doesn't understand the benefits/need of having an attorney on retainer, and still feels the need to ask questions of members of a boating forum about legal issues that need to be addressed by an attorney who has ONLY, your rights and protection in mind?

I go with the joke, or a test ... it's the only thing that makes sense.
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Old 26-05-2015, 18:15   #90
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Re: 10 hours at sea after handover major problems

Here is where a manufacturer can step up and make this right for the boat owner - at the same time garnering some positive press from a bad situation.

Or, they can obfuscate, stonewall, prevaricate, delay, deny and bury themselves in a mound of negative BS, affecting sales and reputation and doing untold damage to their future existence.

I can guess how this will unfold.
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