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Old 13-05-2018, 17:27   #1051
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
While the MWP may have benefited some parts of Europe, it was catastrophic for other parts of the Northern Hemisphere: widespread drought, catastrophic rainfall, toppled dynasties, ruined civilizations, Mongol invasions ...

I suggest you read the Great Warming by Brian Fagan.

In previous sea level rises, people simply packed up their tents and moved. Since then national borders have been established, people live in concrete structures and a much larger population means nowhere to migrate.

Just exactly what adaptations do you foresee?

Most of the climate changes will affect those who took no part in causing the problem.

Climate change will affect developing countries more than rich ones
Your first paragraph is but one example of the story of life on earth generally, and mankind specifically. I assume you've read Guns, Germs & Steel by Jared Diamond?

Like it or not, the fate of peoples and their civilizations has never been decided based on concepts of fairness or equity. But the moral question you raise is even more muddled when you think of the benefits much of the world that did not contribute to AGW have nevertheless received since the advent of fossil fuels.

I'm not sure anyone can foresee what adaptations may occur, just like we can't foresee what technological breakthroughs may await us. All I know is that IF this issue is as catastrophic as we are being told (by some), and IF we fail to adapt either through new technologies or otherwise, then mankind may very well suffer the same fate of every other species on earth that has become too successful to sustain itself. I don't mean to sound crass about it, but why should we be any different? As someone once said, security doesn't exist in nature, so I believe our perspective is somewhat artificial, and more of a byproduct of our comfortable, affluent, Western way of life.
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Old 13-05-2018, 17:44   #1052
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Re: More from the Denialist-in-Chief

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I'm not sure I'd call Science an eco-journal. Many people consider it to be one of the foremost science journals. So I am surprised that they didn't mention GEDI.

I didn't call Science an eco-journal. I called the author an eco-journalist of a similar stripe to those you seem to prefer.

The Science article did mention a program called OCO-3, which is to be sent to the Space Station later this year. Maybe OCO-3 is a component of GEDI?

I suspect there's more to this, the science/technology part that is. But the story you cited is not about that; it's about politics.

Someone interviewed said that "CMS would help knit all these observations together." So perhaps there is some overlap between CMS and GEDI, but that they also complement each other.

Just saw Newhaul's post, thanks. Apparently it takes more than 10 secs. on google to try and link "science" articles with a political agenda.

Either way, it's pretty clear that Trump, and many in his administration, take a dim view to all sorts of science, not just Climate Change science. To quote Trump, "Sad."
Indeed it is. That you feel so compelled to conform to that meme that is. In the article about the GEDI program I quoted above, it mentioned that the Trump administration, through its budget negotiations with Congress, agreed to sustain 4 out of 5 CC-related research programs, with CMS the only one canceled. Well, it appears we now know why, and it strongly suggests the exact opposite of of an administration that "take[s] a dim view to all sorts of science, not just Climate Change science."

Aren't you the one who, as the OP, has expressed concerns over the thread getting closed? Can't imagine an easier way to accomplish that than continuing to chatter on about politics. This is, after all, a discussion that is strictly about the "science."
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Old 13-05-2018, 18:57   #1053
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Re: More from the Denialist-in-Chief

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I didn't call Science an eco-journal. I called the author an eco-journalist of a similar stripe to those you seem to prefer.
If you wish to call the author of the Science article an eco-journalist, then I suppose the author of the PHYS article that you quoted from must also be an eco-journalist. Apparently you think that is a bad thing. Whatever.

The point that I had tried to make was that I had assumed that any article produced under the Science banner (or the PHYS.org name, for that matter) would be well researched.

Did you note that the title of the PHYS article has had the word (Update) appended to it. I wonder what that was about?
Quote:

I suspect there's more to this, the science/technology part that is. But the story you cited is not about that; it's about politics.
It's about both.
Quote:
Just saw Newhaul's post, thanks. Apparently it takes more than 10 secs. on google to try and link "science" articles with a political agenda.
Either way, it's pretty clear that Trump, and many in his administration, take a dim view to all sorts of science, not just Climate Change science. To quote Trump, "Sad."
Indeed it is. That you feel so compelled to conform to that meme that is. In the article about the GEDI program I quoted above, it mentioned that the Trump administration, through its budget negotiations with Congress, agreed to sustain 4 out of 5 CC-related research programs, with CMS the only one canceled.
I give the majority of the credit to Congress. Here's why.
Quote:
Well, it appears we now know why, and it strongly suggests the exact opposite of of an administration that "take[s] a dim view to all sorts of science, not just Climate Change science."
Since I don't wish to continue an overt discussion of the politics of the Trump administration, I regret mentioning him at all. MY BAD!
Quote:
Aren't you the one who, as the OP, has expressed concerns over the thread getting closed? Can't imagine an easier way to accomplish that than continuing to chatter on about politics. This is, after all, a discussion that is strictly about the "science."
I don't think it is discussion of a particular topic that gets a thread closed -- climate science or politics -- but rather violations of CF guidelines such as personal attacks, etc.
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Old 13-05-2018, 19:48   #1054
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
While the MWP may have benefited some parts of Europe, it was catastrophic for other parts of the Northern Hemisphere: widespread drought, catastrophic rainfall, toppled dynasties, ruined civilizations, Mongol invasions ...

I suggest you read the Great Warming by Brian Fagan.

In previous sea level rises, people simply packed up their tents and moved. Since then national borders have been established, people live in concrete structures and a much larger population means nowhere to migrate.

Just exactly what adaptations do you foresee?

Most of the climate changes will affect those who took no part in causing the problem.

Climate change will affect developing countries more than rich ones
actually jack it was the end of the warm periods that various civilizations collapsed. Not during the warm periods.
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Old 13-05-2018, 19:50   #1055
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
While the MWP may have benefited some parts of Europe, it was catastrophic for other parts of the Northern Hemisphere: widespread drought, catastrophic rainfall, toppled dynasties, ruined civilizations, Mongol invasions ...

I suggest you read the Great Warming by Brian Fagan.

In previous sea level rises, people simply packed up their tents and moved. Since then national borders have been established, people live in concrete structures and a much larger population means nowhere to migrate.

Just exactly what adaptations do you foresee?

Most of the climate changes will affect those who took no part in causing the problem.

Climate change will affect developing countries more than rich ones
here is the alternative to the great warming .
https://youtu.be/-Sq1pQ-gMQY
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Old 13-05-2018, 21:05   #1056
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
actually jack it was the end of the warm periods that various civilizations collapsed. Not during the warm periods.
All the collapses you mentioned were Chinese. Chinese cherries from Ice Age Now.

You really must read the Great Warming.

The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, The Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, The Agricultural Revolution and The Industrial Revolution all occurred during the Little Ice Age. (1300-1870)
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Old 13-05-2018, 21:29   #1057
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
All the collapses you mentioned were Chinese. Chinese cherries from Ice Age Now.

You really must read the Great Warming.

The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, The Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, The Agricultural Revolution and The Industrial Revolution all occurred during the Little Ice Age. (1300-1870)
same thing happened with the Vikings in Vineland.
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Old 13-05-2018, 21:38   #1058
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
All the collapses you mentioned were Chinese. Chinese cherries from Ice Age Now.

You really must read the Great Warming.

The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, The Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, The Agricultural Revolution and The Industrial Revolution all occurred during the Little Ice Age. (1300-1870)
Perhaps this will help your understanding
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Old 13-05-2018, 21:55   #1059
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Perhaps this will help your understanding
It helps me understand your critical thinking skills.

So who is Martin Armstrong? Why am I not surprised you would use him as a authority?

Quote:
CFTC violations
In 1985 Armstrong was found to have violated Commodity Futures Trading Commission regulations by failing to register as a commodity trading advisor, failing to deliver required disclosure documents to clients, and failing to maintain proper records.[4] In 1987 one of Armstrong's trading entities, Economic Consultants of Princeton Inc., was charged with failing to disclose a commission-sharing agreement, and another of his entities, Princeton Economic Consultants Inc, was charged with misrepresenting hypothetical performance results and omitting a required disclaimer in advertisements.[4] The penalties levied banned Armstrong and his companies from trading for 12 months, revoked their registrations, imposed cease and desist orders, and levied civil penalties totalling $50,000.[4]

Criminal conviction
In 1999, Japanese fraud investigators accused Armstrong of collecting money from Japanese investors, improperly commingling these funds with funds from other investors, and using the fresh money to cover losses he had incurred while trading.[9] US prosecutors called it a $3 billion Ponzi scheme.[10] Allegedly assisting Armstrong in his scheme was the Republic New York Corporation, which produced false account statements to reassure Armstrong's investors. In 2001, the bank agreed to pay US$606 million as restitution for its part in the scandal.[10]

Armstrong was indicted in 1999, and was ordered by Judge Richard Owen to turn over $15 million in gold bars and antiquities bought with the fund's money; the list included bronze helmets and a bust of Julius Caesar.[11][12] Armstrong produced some of the items, but claimed the others were not in his possession; this led to several contempt of court charges.[13] Armstrong was jailed for seven years under contempt of court, until Armstrong reached a plea agreement with federal prosecutors.[14] Armstrong admitted to deceiving corporate investors and improperly commingling client funds in a case that prosecutors said resulted in commodities losses of more than $700 million.[15] Armstrong was then sentenced to five years in prison.[11] He was released from Federal custody on September 2, 2011, after serving a total of 11 years in jail.[16][17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_A._Armstrong
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Old 13-05-2018, 22:07   #1060
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
It helps me understand your critical thinking skills.

So who is Martin Armstrong? Why am I not surprised you would use him as a authority?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_A._Armstrong

His business dealings are still working their way through the courts.

That however has naught to do with the facts presented in the graphic chart.
Try to open your mind a bit
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Old 14-05-2018, 01:18   #1061
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
All the collapses you mentioned were Chinese. Chinese cherries from Ice Age Now.

You really must read the Great Warming.

The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, The Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, The Agricultural Revolution and The Industrial Revolution all occurred during the Little Ice Age. (1300-1870)
Wow. Is this really what the CC doomsayer extremists believe? No disrespect to the Eskimos, but based on this theory they should be our Lords and Masters.

Maybe this is closer to reality...

Quote:
Earth’s climate has always been in a state of flux. Ever since our ancestors branched off the primate evolutionary tree millions of years ago, the planet has faced drastic swings between moist and dry periods, as well as long-lived glacial freezes and thaws. It’s clear that early humans were able to survive such changes—our existence confirms their success. But a growing number of scientists think that major climate shifts may have also forged some of the defining traits of humanity.

In particular, a few large evolutionary leaps, such as bigger brains and complex tool use, seem to coincide with significant climate change. “I think, to be fair, all we have at the moment is coincidence,” said Peter B. deMenocal of Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. But he and other researchers are exploring several lines of evidence, from ancient teeth to seafloor sediments, to see if a more concrete link can be supported.
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Old 14-05-2018, 04:58   #1062
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
His business dealings are still working their way through the courts.

That however has naught to do with the facts presented in the graphic chart.
Apparently they don't need to around here. Just discredit the author and ignore any relevance to the information provided.
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Old 14-05-2018, 05:06   #1063
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
All the collapses you mentioned were Chinese. Chinese cherries from Ice Age Now.

You really must read the Great Warming.

The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, The Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Enlightenment, The Agricultural Revolution and The Industrial Revolution all occurred during the Little Ice Age. (1300-1870)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Wow. Is this really what the CC doomsayer extremists believe? No disrespect to the Eskimos, but based on this theory they should be our Lords and Masters.

Maybe this is closer to reality...
Quote:
Earth’s climate has always been in a state of flux. Ever since our ancestors branched off the primate evolutionary tree millions of years ago, the planet has faced drastic swings between moist and dry periods, as well as long-lived glacial freezes and thaws. It’s clear that early humans were able to survive such changes—our existence confirms their success. But a growing number of scientists think that major climate shifts may have also forged some of the defining traits of humanity.

In particular, a few large evolutionary leaps, such as bigger brains and complex tool use, seem to coincide with significant climate change.


These two posts read together suggests that it's more difficult for humans to adapt to CC that entails cooling as opposed to warming. Maybe this will reduce some of the distress on the part of some around here?
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Old 14-05-2018, 06:02   #1064
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Re: More from the Denialist-in-Chief

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Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
If you wish to call the author of the Science article an eco-journalist, then I suppose the author of the PHYS article that you quoted from must also be an eco-journalist. Apparently you think that is a bad thing. Whatever.

I didn't rely on the author of the PHYS article, but a direct quote from an official NASA spokesperson that the author included. But I see I touched a PC nerve with my labeling of journalists who report on climate change science. Would "enviro-journalist" be less distressing? Isn't the more important issue whether they get their facts straight and cover scientific issues more objectively? Then again, Trump-bashing is what sells copy these days, right?

The point that I had tried to make was that I had assumed that any article produced under the Science banner (or the PHYS.org name, for that matter) would be well researched.

And you assume the same when it comes to the NYT, WP, and perhaps the Guardian as well. Any publication, website, article or blog which comports with your political views. Me, I just read those boring science publications for the pictures. Maybe you should develop a slightly more critical approach?

Did you note that the title of the PHYS article has had the word (Update) appended to it. I wonder what that was about?

Yes, I noticed that too, and also that the PHYS article was published one day after the one in Science. That's why I thought there was likely more to the story. But these sorts of funding issues and technological innovations don't appear overnight, so it's probably safe to conclude that the enviro-journalist who authored the Science article didn't do his homework. Probably too excited over the prospect of pushing the Trump "anti-science" meme, and virtue-signaling himself into a good income.

It's about both.

The scientific evidence and expert opinions which interpret it have nothing to do with politics, or t least they shouldn't. Bias and pre-determined outcomes, however, have everything to do with politics. Hopefully you understand the difference.

I give the majority of the credit to Congress. Here's why.

Of course you do. But of course are not privy to the negotiations and deliberations so actually don't know. It's probably safe to say, however, that a majority of Americans -- Dems and Repubs alike -- believe that CC is a legitimate scientific issue worthy of monitoring. Besides, the new satellite system will help with our marine weather forecasting. If you can get beyond the stereotyping you like to read then the survey info you cited above shouldn't be a surprise.

Since I don't wish to continue an overt discussion of the politics of the Trump administration, I regret mentioning him at all. MY BAD!

C'mon, you don't really regret it now, do you? Admit it, it gives you that little thrill up your leg (as Chris Mathews liked to say about Obama speeches).

I don't think it is discussion of a particular topic that gets a thread closed -- climate science or politics -- but rather violations of CF guidelines such as personal attacks, etc.
You're wrong. Too much political chat is violative of CF rules and will get a thread closed. We've just been given a LOT of latitude on this one. Maybe because things have been relatively civil, at least compared to other CC threads. But you can try pushing it and we'll find out!
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Old 14-05-2018, 06:29   #1065
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Re: Northwest Passage - 2018

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His business dealings are still working their way through the courts.

That however has naught to do with the facts presented in the graphic chart.
Try to open your mind a bit
He spent 11 years in prison.

Please prove the source that was used for the "facts" used in the graph.

In the meantime from real scientists

https://astronomynow.com/2015/08/08/...-solar-trends/
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